View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #4601
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Chisolm is a bit late to the party. Many on RR has been advocating this for at least 6 mos. now.
    I'd be more inclined to say a certain vocal portion of RR have advocated a trade. Many implies majority - which might be presumptuous in its' finality.

    .

  2. #4602
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It's got to be hard to be a Bargnani fan about now. Real hard.
    Actually .... it's hard to be a Raptor fan

    .

  3. #4603
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    From the Amir thread...



    I think trading Bargnani has two effects. The first is starting to change the atmosphere of the team. Much like when Colangelo came in and brought in guys who were used to winning, like Anthony Parker, Garbajosa and Nesterovic, trading Bargnani will allow the team to turn the page on their horrible defensive reputation. He's not the sole reason, but ridding him of the team is a major step in the right direction.

    Secondly, you hopefully get either a young prospect of hopefully lottery pick in return. The financial flexibility is probably the last thing they need to worry about since there's little they can do with it, anyway.

    And while Dallas is certainly a successful team, are they really team you want to model yourself after? Especially since your "Dirk" is a very pale imitation of him.

    The saying the best defense is a good offense has nothing to do with basketball. The best defense is actually a good defense. Always has been and probably always will be. Offensive teams have historically been far better in the regular season than in the playoffs. Defense has always been the foundation of Championship teams. Right through the ages. I'm all for trying new things, but there's a difference between being innovative and ignoring history and common sense.
    I think that defensively the two most crucial positions that need to be solid for a team are PG and C. The point of attack, not allowing penetration and forcing the help defense to react, and then protecting the basket. A team like Orlando, everyone thought Hedo Turkoglu was a good defender, but it turns out he was only a good defender because Dwight Howard was the last line of defense, and he is the best defensive player in the league. So if we can address those two issues the raptors can have their defense improved.

    As for changing the identity or atmosphere of the team, I think trading Calderon who had a good season statistically and may have decent trade value atm would be better, we have bayless to replace him who is definately a better defender. If we can address the C position and fill that hole with a solid, imposing, shot blocking big, if we have sorted out our PG problem we can definately be a better defensive team and still keep Bargnani.

    Now if trading Bargnani means that we can address some of these issues than im all for it, but if these issues can be addressed through free agency which we have tons of cap room for, and this season happens to be a good offseason for C's (Nene, Chandler, Gasol all free agents) then their is no need to trade him.

    If however we cannot get a solid C, and I dont mean draft one, Im not in the camp of waiting 2-3 years to make the playoffs, a team needs a healthy balance between veterans and young guns, I want an experienced veteran C if that cant be obtained through free agency, then trading Bargnani should be our only option. If that isnt the case however I make the argument that we keep him, use our financial flexibility to address our issues, and keep a very dynamic scorer who I think is signed to a reasonable contract.

  4. #4604
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    I'd be more inclined to say a certain vocal portion of RR have advocated a trade. Many implies majority - which might be presumptuous in its' finality.

    .
    Many implies a large number. It doesn't imply a majority. And I'd say a large number of RR posters have been advocating a Bargnani trade.
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  5. #4605
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Quote raptorsking wrote: View Post
    "What I do on offense is more complicated than rebounding or defense."

    - andrea bargnani

    LOL
    Like I said in the other thread that is taken out of context. What he trying to say is that what he does is on offense is more complicated (like being the #1 option) so he should get rebounding and D because that is mainly focus... but he doesn't. He's pretty much saying that he can do it but he need to focus more on that side of the ball.

  6. #4606
    Raptors Republic Rookie badbob's Avatar
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    Why not take advantage of Barg's skills. He is a shooter and a scorer! He could be a sixth man off the bench and play against second stringers and do lots of scoring off the bench! It's hard to replace a 20 point scorer and since we already have him ; bring him off the bench to do some scoring on the second unit!! Before I would trade him we would have to get something very good before I would dump him for nothing; as I said he could come off the bench and be a big plus!!

  7. #4607
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    i don't like the idea of making bargs into a 6th man. i think his greatest value outside of our starting center position is being on a different team. his value would decrease a significant amount after becoming a bench player on a losing team. also, we're not in a position to demote him and continue to have expectations of him improving his defensive reliability. making him a 6th man for his offence exclusively is the wrong approach for any progression.

  8. #4608
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    Quote funkie wrote: View Post
    i don't like the idea of making bargs into a 6th man. i think his greatest value outside of our starting center position is being on a different team. his value would decrease a significant amount after becoming a bench player on a losing team. also, we're not in a position to demote him and continue to have expectations of him improving his defensive reliability. making him a 6th man for his offence exclusively is the wrong approach for any progression.
    I agree.I couldn't write it that clear.That opinion about making him 6th man should be considered by every fan here who continue to make up variants of keeping Andrea on the team.Whatever happens with his situation at the start of next season I hope B.Co would do the right thing for the TEAM.

  9. #4609
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    Quote webcrawler89 wrote: View Post
    I'...Suns have Gortat, Magic probably won't want him, Bucks already have Bogut.
    you know... the Magic are the team where he would make the most sense. He can stand outside the 3 pt line and jack shots all day and stretch the floor for Dwight (much like Rashard did) and their is no player in the league that makes the most sense to back up AB's inability to defend or rebound.

    Unfortunately they have crap to offer. Bargnani for Gortat and Pietrus was a missed deal that should have been.

  10. #4610
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    Quote badbob wrote: View Post
    Why not take advantage of Barg's skills. He is a shooter and a scorer! He could be a sixth man off the bench and play against second stringers and do lots of scoring off the bench! It's hard to replace a 20 point scorer and since we already have him ; bring him off the bench to do some scoring on the second unit!! Before I would trade him we would have to get something very good before I would dump him for nothing; as I said he could come off the bench and be a big plus!!
    It could be very hard for Bargs to swallow not being a starter. After all he is still in denial that it is his overall performance that has brought about this movement to trade him.
    Last edited by j bean; Sun Apr 17th, 2011 at 08:37 PM.

  11. #4611
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Many implies a large number. It doesn't imply a majority. And I'd say a large number of RR posters have been advocating a Bargnani trade.
    If there is one thing BC is good at (besides his proven drafting record) is getting out of mistakes. Bargs was not a mistake at number one. The mistake is his fit with this team. It's pretty clear that the recent drafting of Ed Davis and the signing of Amir along with the trade for James Johnson marked the supposed "end" to the emulation of the old Phoenix Suns. So, with that in mind, it'll be interesting if BC can get the most out of Andrea's value. I personally don't care where AB fits or under what system he thrives at. I only care about who's coming here.

    PS> He can drop 45 on us for all I care. As long as we win.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  12. #4612
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    As DeRozan's also experience a large percentage drop of his shots being assisted, from 67.4% to 59.4%, we should all conclude he's finding his shot less and less within the flow of the team's offense? His insistence on going one-on-one has led to a dramatic increase in shots from the 16-23 foot range, from 2.3 a game to 5.1, which is basically the laziest shot he could take shooting . So not only does the team's offense need to basically stop to allow him his forays with the ball, but he 'rewards' the team by taking bad shots.

    I too can be very selective with discussing statistics...

    Time to get some Skittles.

  13. #4613
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    Quote dballa21 wrote: View Post
    If we can trade him to one of Kanter/Valanucunias/Montiejunas and a first rounder we should trade him for sure. BC should make the mistake of forcing the issue and not getting enough back for him.
    Montiejunas is Bargnani Jr.

  14. #4614
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    How can Colangelo justify a Bargnani trade to skeptical bosses like Larry Tanenbaum? "Whoops, the last 5 years have been a dreadful mistake. The guy I was building around was a waste of a #1 pick and should have been nailed to the end of the bench. My bad." He might as well quit.

  15. #4615
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    I was hard on the "trade Bargnani" train and I think it is clear that he has demonstrated this season that he is not a number 1 guy on any team or a "franchise" player. However, he doesn't get paid like a franchise player, he gets paid like a 2-3 guy if not a 4-6 on a very good team. Whether you like it or not he was the focal point of our offense this year and was treated by opposing teams at our number one threat. I'm not trying to make excuses for him but one could argue that Barg's is not the problem. The fact that we have no all-stars, no franchise players, hardly any veteran presence (barbs, and reggie?) explains his drop in rebounding/shot blocking ect. Barg's was in over his head and being asked to do a job he wasn't qualified for, couldn't do, and didn't get paid for it. Barg's as the face of the franchise? You can find the answer to that question at failblog.com. But does that mean he has to go? Getting rid of Bargnani doesn't magically give us a franchise player, or an allstar or even veteran presence, unless some of those pieces are involved in that trade. Getting rid of Bargnani is not addition by subtraction. Although there are some problems with the efficiency of his production getting better players on this team would make a big difference, for the team as a whole not just Barg's. Let me be clear, I am NOT advocating that we build around bargnani. In fact it is the opposite, we need BETTER players or our younger players to continue to develop. Bargnani as a 3rd option could do just as well here as elsewhere. I don't buy the he "won't" be willing to come of the bench or that it would hurt his trade value. If we get good value for him then sure, pull the trigger, but his contract is very reasonable and as the 3rd or 4th option he could still be very effective. I know we are "mostly" and yes I mean that the majority of RR posters are on the trade bargs train. But it has to be for something BETTER. I don't think draft picks will do it. If I am the GM it's not just about getting the right players, but it's about getting the right players with the right contracts. Barg's might not be the right player but he is still better than a wrong player on a wrong contract OR even the right player at the wrong contract. Barg's gets paid to play, he'll play at the 3 position or at c or coming off the bench, because it is clear that "favouritism" from the front office/coaching staff has run out. We are still in rebuild mode and still have an excellent payroll (if you don't count peja as still being a raptor). Keeping good contracts keeps us flexible. Making a trade just to trade could leave us with a contract that limits us for going after the "final" piece to take us DEEP into the playoffs 2-4 years from now. We don't HAVE to trade Bargnani, we CAN and we SHOULD but only if get a player AND contract that give BETTER value.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  16. #4616
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    As DeRozan's also experience a large percentage drop of his shots being assisted, from 67.4% to 59.4%, we should all conclude he's finding his shot less and less within the flow of the team's offense? His insistence on going one-on-one has led to a dramatic increase in shots from the 16-23 foot range, from 2.3 a game to 5.1, which is basically the laziest shot he could take shooting . So not only does the team's offense need to basically stop to allow him his forays with the ball, but he 'rewards' the team by taking bad shots.

    I too can be very selective with discussing statistics...

    Time to get some Skittles.
    GREAT point, although Demar plays Shooting Guard, whereas barg's plays Center. So Demar "shooting" from the "guard" area near the 3 pt line makes more sense than the Center, not shooting in the "Center" aka under the basket. However, I think that the problems that chislom and yourself point out is the lack of another player to contribute offensively to share the burder with derozen and barg's who would be the 2-4 options on other teams not the 1-2 options as the were this year for us.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  17. #4617
    Raptors Republic Rookie philwill's Avatar
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    what does "large" or "small" have to do with numbers?

    I think "many" implies a group greater than "not many", but it's completely within the realm of possibility that the group indicated would not be large. For example, in relation to the NBA as a whole, how many fans are Raptors fans? Not many. Of those fans, how many would support the idea of trading Bargnani? Even fewer; so, less than not many.

    I don't know if using the term "many" was appropriate, and it certainly has little or nothing to do with a majority, but using "large" and "small" to describe number is a conceptual misnomer as such terms relate to physical size. So, unless you're describing the number "1,000,000" as larger in space than "1"...
    It's about money

  18. #4618
    Raptors Republic Rookie philwill's Avatar
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    (just to be a prick)
    It's about money

  19. #4619
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I was hard on the "trade Bargnani" train and I think it is clear that he has demonstrated this season that he is not a number 1 guy on any team or a "franchise" player. However, he doesn't get paid like a franchise player, he gets paid like a 2-3 guy if not a 4-6 on a very good team. Whether you like it or not he was the focal point of our offense this year and was treated by opposing teams at our number one threat. I'm not trying to make excuses for him but one could argue that Barg's is not the problem. The fact that we have no all-stars, no franchise players, hardly any veteran presence (barbs, and reggie?) explains his drop in rebounding/shot blocking ect. Barg's was in over his head and being asked to do a job he wasn't qualified for, couldn't do, and didn't get paid for it. Barg's as the face of the franchise? You can find the answer to that question at failblog.com. But does that mean he has to go? Getting rid of Bargnani doesn't magically give us a franchise player, or an allstar or even veteran presence, unless some of those pieces are involved in that trade. Getting rid of Bargnani is not addition by subtraction. Although there are some problems with the efficiency of his production getting better players on this team would make a big difference, for the team as a whole not just Barg's. Let me be clear, I am NOT advocating that we build around bargnani. In fact it is the opposite, we need BETTER players or our younger players to continue to develop. Bargnani as a 3rd option could do just as well here as elsewhere. I don't buy the he "won't" be willing to come of the bench or that it would hurt his trade value. If we get good value for him then sure, pull the trigger, but his contract is very reasonable and as the 3rd or 4th option he could still be very effective. I know we are "mostly" and yes I mean that the majority of RR posters are on the trade bargs train. But it has to be for something BETTER. I don't think draft picks will do it. If I am the GM it's not just about getting the right players, but it's about getting the right players with the right contracts. Barg's might not be the right player but he is still better than a wrong player on a wrong contract OR even the right player at the wrong contract. Barg's gets paid to play, he'll play at the 3 position or at c or coming off the bench, because it is clear that "favouritism" from the front office/coaching staff has run out. We are still in rebuild mode and still have an excellent payroll (if you don't count peja as still being a raptor). Keeping good contracts keeps us flexible. Making a trade just to trade could leave us with a contract that limits us for going after the "final" piece to take us DEEP into the playoffs 2-4 years from now. We don't HAVE to trade Bargnani, we CAN and we SHOULD but only if get a player AND contract that give BETTER value.
    Personally, I never saw or expected Bargnani to be a franchise player. I expected him to be more of a leader. But even if he's being paid as a 2nd or 3rd option...it still isn't worth it. He's regressing on the boards and defensively. So he only scores inefficiently. I mean like, given that he's only scores...and not that well, is a plyon defensively and a historically bad rebound, how useful is the guy as a starter? Everything about him screams bench player, but even so his flaws will still have to be catered to in order for him to be true effectively and now the team just doesn't have the makeup for it, nor is it worth changing for him.

    Defensively, getting rid of Bargnani is addition by subtraction.

    That said, I agree that we should force our way into a trading. We should get value, but we should also be shopping him hard.

  20. #4620
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    How can Colangelo justify a Bargnani trade to skeptical bosses like Larry Tanenbaum? "Whoops, the last 5 years have been a dreadful mistake. The guy I was building around was a waste of a #1 pick and should have been nailed to the end of the bench. My bad." He might as well quit.
    Colangelo shouldn't have to justify trading Bargs or anyone else to somebody like Tanenbaum.

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