View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #4781
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Working Hard does not necessarily mean success. Talent and skills are needed as well. Every team needs few skilled talented player, few hard nose guys, few garbage men who dive on the floor and crash the boards and ...

    You can not have a winner with having a team full of Skilled Player who do NOT work too hard or don't do the dirty Job. The same is true that you can not have a team full of garbage man who can not shoot pass the 15 feet line and dribble the ball !!

    It is nice to see the fans here who are used to Hockey and ... appreciating the garbage man , blue color type players but the constant bashing of STARS in this city, be it it was VC, Bosh and now AB is just ridiculous.
    Scoring power is easier to come across than blue collar, hard working players who contribute on both sides of the court. I never said I wanted them to deal Bargnani for talentless players. I want talent back, just with the right mentality to help build towards a winner. Guys with Bargnani's mentality don't appear often on championship teams... Certainly not in important starting roles.

  2. #4782
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    I 2nd that. I want AB in the play off next season, Just like Marco who everyone here was screaming CAN NOT play Defense and now is in Play offs and their TEAM defense is much better than ours.

    AB deserves better than Toronto and I can not wait to see this team next season. I made a prediction in another thread. With BC and Jay in Charge and AB out of Toronto, This team will not win more than 18 games next season.


    Also, people here thought that Marco was a bad defender? What the hell?

  3. #4783
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    The thing is you need to consider not only boxing out, you need consider the position of a player when grabbing an available rebound. The majority of games this year bargnani was forced to guard the pick and roll, while his defensive partner Ed, Amir, Reggie were locate underneath the basket. Logic suggest its much more likely you will get a rebound right next to the basket as appose to away from the basket. Again like I said it’s really hard to measure defense and rebounding because players on poor defensive teams often times focus on team problems, such as rotating helping out etc.. which leaves them less focused on guarding the basket and being available for rebounding opportunities.
    The pick and roll argument would make sense if Bargnani was always the one defending the pick and roll. It wasn't. And the argument also doesn't work because neither Amir nor Davis appear to be bad defenders, yet they play on the same team as Bargnani.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Most teams in the playoffs have a scoring 4 playing alongside a true 5. Dirk, Bosh, Boozer, Aldridge, Gasol, etcc all these teams have legitimate stretch 4’s which are crucial to winning. Bargnani is ALWAYS an asset to his team on the offensive end. He spreads the floor and keeps defenses honest. His defense has steadily been improving if you discount rebounding .. his positioning has improved, he is more willing to take charges than ever before and he often tries (without much success) to help out his teammates.
    Where you completely lose this is when you say that Bargnani has been steadily improving on defense. I have not seen any evidence of this, and it seems you're really the only one who has. He is worse defensively this season then he ever has been.

    And teams don't need a stretch 4. Oklahoma certainly doesn't have one. Neither does San Antonio. All you really need is a big man who can hit from 15 feet to keep defenses honest, and Amir does this. I also don't see what the point of complaining that the Raptors won't have a big man who can stretch the defense when we don't even know who the center will even be next year. If it's Kanter, he's apparently a good outside shooter.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    How is coming out oh highschool any more difficult then coming strait from Europe without speaking a word of English? At least Amir was able to communicate with his coaches and not just nod his head pretending he knew what was expected of him.
    First of all Bargnani did speak a little English. Secondly, Bargnani played professionally against grown men before coming to the NBA. Amir lived at home and had played against kids. Big, big difference, no matter what the language barrier.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    I think the defensive issue has less to do with Andrea and more to do with the team. If you put the proper defensive players around Andrea the team defensive will improve. Every team needs a balance between offense and defense. You can’t just put two defensive minded bigs in your starting lineup who provide no offense because it will become an offensive nightmare, which is why having a scoring big man is a huge advantage to any team’s success which is not measured by rebounding but WINS.
    Bargnani is the worst defender on the team, so removing him will automatically make the defense better. It's simple logic. There certainly need to be improvements beyond that, but removing Bargnani from the picture will certainly help.

    And your argument, as I've said, doesn't take into account who the center will be next year. And both Amir and Davis do provide offense. Not as much as Bargnani, but since they also play defense, they don't need to score as much to make a positive impact. No one is denying the need to provide offense, but you seem set on the player providing the offense having a negative impact on the defensive end. Most of us just would rather have any offensive players also being able to play defense. I really don't understand why you don't. It doesn't have to be one or the other, you know.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Was he handed his 10 million dollar contract on a silver plate as well. You can’t fake talent or production at the NBA level. Colangelo and those who approve player signings don’t hand out money for nothing espcially the second time around. Yes his shooting percentage efficeny decreased from previous years but that is going to happen when you are constantly doubled teamed and have little talent around you. What I find interesting however is with the added defensive pressure and the subtraction of arguably our best player in Bosh he was still able to increase his scoring production which to me indicates his offensive skill set dramatically improved from previous years.
    Why is it when you're arguing that his contract is good you say it's $8 million, but in this case you say it's a $10 million? And that doesn't matter at all. Did Charlie Villanueva deserve his contract? He's a very good offensive player who is almost as bad defensively as Bargnani is. And I want nothing to do with either of them because of their poor defense.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Every player has a specific role. Andrea is not paid to dive for loose balls or push around with 280 pounders. Its like asking the ceo of a company to generate income AND do the heavy lifiting. Most likely wont happen, nor is it efficient for the company since the ceo may risk pulling a back muscle and then who know which direction the company will go in. 
    This is a bogus argument. There are certain things that ALL players should be expected to do. Especially if you want to win. Winners do what it takes to win, whether that be playing defense or rebounding or whatever. Even role players who are winners will do whatever it takes to win. If you don't think Bargnani needs to do any dirty work, then you are basically excusing him from winning.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Well we can at least admit he sucks being a top 15 scorer in the NBA. So no matter what happens and what coaching does next at least we are certain of one thing, our team produced at top 15 scorer who doesn’t deserve to be here and should be traded.
    Corey Maggette has been a top 15 scorer. So has Dana Barros. And Tony Campbell. There's a long list of guys who can score if given enough shots on a bad team. A lot of them failed to find a role on a good team because they refused to do the "dirty work". Your whole argument in support of Bargnani seems to be that he's a top 15 scorer, but you don't seem to get that doesn't necessarily make him a really good player.
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  4. #4784
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    Why do so many Bargnani supporters (at least the most vocal ones) seem to believe that either a player is a great scorer, or has no offensive talent, and there's nothing in between? The whole argument seems to be that you need scoring to win, and if you want Bargnani traded that automatically means that you don't want anyone on the team that can score. It's either Bargnani or Reggie Evans.

    Believe it or not, you can get a player who can score AND play defense. Can you imagine that?
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  5. #4785
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post

    Also, people here thought that Marco was a bad defender? What the hell?
    Call it what ever you want but it is the TRUTH. People on this board called Marco an awful defender. His minute was getting shorter and shorter because the Typicall Raptor fan were saying he can not stay in front of his man and ...

    Well, he is starting for a Play off team now and holding his own !! Same can be said to some extend about Jack. Same was said about Bonner. Bosh was deemed a weak defender and the Bashers were all over him last night.

    Mark my word, AB will be dropping 30+ pt on this Scrub of Raptor team and will be shining in the play offs if he is traded.

  6. #4786
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    People on this board called Marco an awful defender.
    Really? I never once called Belinelli and awful defender, and in fact said the opposite. I said he was a good defender numerous times. Belinelli's biggest problem was he's completely undisciplined on the offensive end, despite his talents there. Even still, I would rather have kept Belinelli.

    And Bargnani may very well be dropping 30+ points on the Raptors next season, but he'll be doing it from a team about as bad as the Raptors are. I don't know why you'd think a good team would want a big who can't play defense.
    Last edited by Tim W.; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 09:02 PM.
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  7. #4787
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Really? I never once called Belinelli and awful defender, and in fact said the opposite. I said he was a good defender numerous times. Belinelli's biggest problem was he's completely undisciplined on the offensive end, despite his talents there. Even still, I would rather have kept Belinelli.

    And Bargnani may very well be dropping 30+ points on the Raptors next season, but he'll be doing it from a team about as bad as the Raptors are. I don't know why you'd think a good team would want a big who can't play defense.
    First of All, I said People, Not Tim and to see that I am right, just look at the posts from last year. The guy was not able to get 5 minutes from Jay and everyone was counting him out because he is Soft European and ... Now, look at him.

    As far as AB, this is where you and I disagree. You think AB can not play defense while I acknowledge his weakness in defense, claim that under the right system and with right coaching he will be a descent to good team defender.

  8. #4788
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    AB deserves better than Toronto and I can not wait to see this team next season. I made a prediction in another thread. With BC and Jay in Charge and AB out of Toronto, This team will not win more than 18 games next season.
    Why the fuck are you on RaptorsRepublic? Go join a Barg fan page and screw off with your "can't wait to see Toronto fail" attitude.

  9. #4789
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    First of All, I said People, Not Tim and to see that I am right, just look at the posts from last year. The guy was not able to get 5 minutes from Jay and everyone was counting him out because he is Soft European and ... Now, look at him.

    As far as AB, this is where you and I disagree. You think AB can not play defense while I acknowledge his weakness in defense, claim that under the right system and with right coaching he will be a descent to good team defender.
    If I saw that Belinelli was actually a decent defender on a poor defensive team, as well as saw that Bosh was an adequate defender on a bad defensive team, and both those guys turned out to be decent and adequate after they left the Raptors, don't you think it's a good indication that I am a pretty good judge of whether or not it's the player and not the system that is the problem?

    If Bargnani could become a decent to good team defender, don't you think there would be SOME indication? I saw it with Bosh, despite a lot of people calling him a bad defender with the Raptors. I don't see it with Bargnani. At all. In order to be a good team defender you have to show some half decent IQ in that area, and Bargnani displays an extremely poor IQ in that area. You can't teach that.
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  10. #4790
    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Default Bargnani at the 3 spot?

    If the lottery gives us the 3rd pick, Derrick Williams and Kyrie Irving will probably be gone when it's our turn to draft. According to different mocks drafts such as nbadraft.net, the Raptors would take Enes Kanter. He's a center. If he's good enough to start in his first season, we'll have a lot of bigs inside. Do you guys think that Andrea Bargnani could slide to the 3 spot? If the answer is yes, I think it could be great, because there is not a lot of possible options on the trade and free agent market. Here is what the core could look:
    C: Kanter/Ajinça/Alabi
    PF: Davis/Johnson
    SF: Bargnani/Johnson/Kleiza
    SG: DeRozan/Barbosa
    PG: Bayless/Calderon

    That's not bad and it's pretty realistic! What do you think?

  11. #4791
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I have to disagree, Bargnani is not a 3.

    If there are questions as to whether Williams can play the 3 then Bargnani can definitely not play the 3.

    He is not athletic enough to keep up with most 3's in the league.

  12. #4792
    Raptors Republic Starter RaptorDan's Avatar
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    OMG! Bargnani at the 3! What a can of worms you just opened up. You should brace yourself for the tsunami of hell nos coming your way.
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  13. #4793
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    I pondered the idea recently.

    We have seen Andrea abused @ Center.
    We have seen Andrea molested @ PF

    I don't think I have the ability to watch him get abused and molested @ SF. Horrified by the idea. He'd look like a human turnstile.
    “I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, he’s listed as Chu Chu. I think he’s worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name.” -Tim W.

  14. #4794
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    He started at SF when Jermaine O'Neal was a Raptor. Didn't work then. What is this obsession with trying to figure out how to make it work with him? He's really not good.
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  15. #4795
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    NO

  16. #4796
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    If you've ever seen Bargnani try to play defence against Tayshaun Prince, you'll know what a bad idea playing Bargnani at the 3 is.

  17. #4797
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    So what, trade him?

  18. #4798
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    So what, trade him?
    It might be the best option if the trade is beneficial to both sides.

    Bargnani for Thompson/Garcia/2011 2nd round pick/2012 first round pick? In a heartbeat.

  19. #4799
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    This might have worked better if they had kept him at the three years ago. As it is he has become way to heavy and slow to guard opposing threes. It's a shame really, if they had cast him as a three initially he might have done well there.
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  20. #4800
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    There has been enough debate over the years as to whether Bargnani is a 4 or 5... I highly doubt even his biggest supporter would be in favor of the idea of him playing the 3! He just simply isn't athetlic/quick enough to do so at either end of the court.

    If the Raptors can somehow find a defensive-minded C that is young & talented enough to become part of the long-term core of the team along with Davis/DeRozan, then I expect to see Bargnani or Amir traded. There wouldn't be enough minutes for all 4 bigs and it would be far more beneficial to use one of them in a trade to acquire a starter that address a need at another position (ie: starting SF).

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