Ive seen posts here comparing Jamal Crawford to Andrea Bargnani, both with no desire to defend or rebound (in Jamal's case, pass the ball) but both with good offensive games.
With the Hawks moving to the second round and Jamal undoubtedly a big contributor to this, can the Raps make use of Bargnani the way the Hawks used Crawford? If Bargnani is paired with a defensive center, will it work the same way as Crawford paired with a defensive 3 like Josh Smith?
Just want to make it clear that im not a Bargnani lover and im not making a case for Bargnani to stay with the Raps, but if he does indeed stay, can him and a defensive center make things work for the Raps as evidenced by the success of the Hawks with Jamal on their team?
For this analogy to be more accurate, you'd have to have Bargnani play as the 6th man. So, either with Bargnani or without him, the team still is in big need of a starting-calibre defensive 5.
You'd also need a sniper on the wing for kick-outs, and a high quality defender at the 1 to ensure Bargnani is basically never asked to play help D.
It definitely could work, but it would be so contingent upon who else the Raptors get in the offseason that it would be extremely difficult to forecast.
what's the point of having an awesome 6th man bargs when every minute he's on the court we're still gonna be stuck with a weak ass rebounding/defending bargs. whether he's scoring from the starting line-up or scoring from the bench, he's still a liability out on the court.
also, how will a defensive center help bargs when the defensive center is gonna be either giving up his own assignment or fouling out from trying to cover bargs man. bargs covering power forwards, seriously?
I think comparing the two are difficult seeing as how Crawford's help defenders are Smith, Horford and Pachulia, while Bargnani IS the help defense. Crawford's defense is no where near as bad as Barganani, or so it seems, because Crawford has help if he messes up, while Bargnani is the one providing the help.
So if they're both equally as bad on defense, Bargnani would still be the bigger liability based on position.
Ya, unfortunately the fact that he's a big man makes things a little different. Crawford's lack of defense doesn't hurt you as much because he's defending the wing. Besides, how far can you go with a guy like Crawford playing a big role? I don't know, but the Hawks have never been past the second round.
I think in this scenario, Bargs would be covering the offensively weaker of the 2 opposing bigs, rather than simply being locked into always defending the 4 (assuming of course the as-yet-unknown-and-unobtained "defensive 5" is capable enough of defending opposing 4s).
Unless he's guarding Jason Collins every night, I'd still assume he'd get toasted...
Don't mean to be a prick, just saying
Despite that, given that the Hawks are so dependent upon a SG off the bench shows how much of a ridiculous disaster it was for the Hawks to give so much god damned money to Joe Johnson - their starting SG and ostensible best player. Just ridiculous.
To have a high-paid, high-scoring gunner off the bench like Crawford or Terry, you have to have a very good, solid starting five. Toronto is nowhere near that. Bargs could be a gunner off the bench, but not with this team. They are definitely a few years away from that point, so he is either a starter or he's gone.
I think this thread brings up a few good points:
1/ If you keep Bargs as a starter you need to surround him with players that hide his defensive woes.
2/ If you move him to the bench you would need a solid defensive starting five to fully take advantage of his talents - like how JET and Crawford are supported.
Am I right in saying then if they decide to keep Bargs the whole team needs to be rebuilt with to cover for his weaknesses?
Sixth men are typically not big men. I suppose because the role is typically that of a hustle-type, quick offense, create your own shot and the occasional getyourfacedirty type getting the odd rebound. I dont see these as attributes of Bargs (except for the quick offense possibly). Crawford though has them mostly. I would also say that this role is more defined on the good-very good teams who will go on to 50 win type seasons. In other words for teams whose rosters are pretty much set and defined. This is of course a major deficiency of the Raptors. The idea of having a "defined" 6th man when 3 of the 5 starting group is not yet set seems to me as at least getting ahead of ourselves...no?
And we are not even sure about those great intangibles all good 6th men have...embrace of the role, no time need for getting into the shooting groove and an assassin mentality. Do we see this in Bargnani? I believe that Crawford took quite awhile before accepting that role. He always thought himself as a starter. Until this year Ginobli was the primo example.
I honestly think it wouldnt work either.
Based on the games ive seen, Bargnani is not an instant offense guy. He's a good scorer, but he doesnt give you points quickly, like Crawford or Barbosa. I noticed that he usually misses his first 2 or 3 shots then gets into a rythm, or gets his 1st in and misses the next 2 or 3....If Bargnani would come off the bench, he would need to be a spark, but i dont see that.
Not necessarily he'd be the first man off the bench, i think they just use 6th man as a figure of speech, not literally. Crawford is not always the 1st man off the bench, but he usually is the one, off the bench, that stays the longest on the floor.
i think there's actually a good mixture of SFs and bigs that usually come off the bench. Its just logical because SFs are more often the not the more active players and get tired easily, and the bigs, they just get tired easily.
I really cant think of a way that Bargnani can help the Raps with their current predicament, not anymore.
The first player off the bench for the Raptors was usually a big (Davis or Amir, depending on who was starting) and there have been plenty of great 6th men who were bigs, including Lamar Odom, Kevin McHale, Antawn Jamison, Cliff Robinson, Roy Tarpley, Bill Walton, all who won the 6th Man award. I think the best attribute of a 6th man is that he can come in and play multiple positions, which Bargnani can do. I do agree, though, that he's probably not suited to the role. He's always struggled when asked to come off the bench and is not the type of scorer that usually does well off the bench. He's not an instant offense guy but more a rhythm shooter.
The comparison made is based on their knack for scoring but not much else. In Crawford's case, he's defending the wing and will always have the luxury of help defense that comes from Josh Smith or Al Horford. As a last line of defense, Andrea should be the anchor. If he fails, who helps him? Besides, the position and scoring demands from those positions make a world of a difference as far as these two players are concerned. As a wing player in a guard-oriented league, there's more demand for Jamal to score first and pass the ball next. For AB, the demand is for him to box out his man, rebound and provide help defense. If his scoring average next year takes a dip but his rebounding and defense improves, very few will be bitching about him next year.
“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King
Bargnani's more J.R. Smith than Crawford, imo. Regardless, both players are much better defenders than Bargnani is...
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