View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5981
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Well since we're talkin bout basketball in our own lives... I used to suck last year at basketball, I could never hit a contested shot I'd always get stuffed. After an entire summer of jump shots and layups I finally became the lights out shooter I wanted to be. And my quick release if virtually unblockable. Just goes to show that a little practice can go a long way.
    Nice work.

    Don't forget that lesson applies to everything in life.

  2. #5982
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont agree. He followed a certain routine and training pattern in his career as a basketball player that made him a good defender. Im pretty sure he remembers how the whole history of how he started playing basketball, how he turned out to be a solid defender and how he managed to play throughout his career and become a winner. I think he's simply talking from experience. Given he did have good defensive instincts, he still worked on his game and trained hard. And thats what he's implying. One can be a solid defender given the right training.

    I agree with this one. But look at it this way as well. If youre instinctively a good defender, like you guard somebody and youre always able to keep your man infront of you, but you hate defense and prefer to shoot the ball most of the time. does that make you a bad defender? just because you choose not to put effort on defense? just because you dont have the mindset and only skill, does that make you a bad defender? coz ive seen guys like this. ive played with guys like this. And in the same token, say a scrawny guy who is fast but really isnt too attentive on defense, but a coach pulls him aside and tells him, i want you to guard #3 (a guy who gets 30pts a night easy) stick to him like glue and do not make him shoot over you. every game they play this #3 he doesnt score more than 10. so are you going to label this guy a good defender because he's able to keep #3 to 10 points a game? when, prior to being given instructions, this guy couldnt guard squat?

    since we're sharing experiences, i thought id add mine. i was never a good defender, at least thats what i thought of myself when i started playing basketball. i was the other guy you were referring to. i used to watch other guys blow by me. but i had a good shot and i can make plays. i played four years of junior varsity. and was never cut from the team. my coaches never told me i improved on defense, but i think the solid training and coaching for 4 years improved my defense, otherwise, i wouldve been cut by year 2.

    the thing is, if defending in the NBA is more personality than skill, we'd all be making millions now. everyone has the drive, but only the ones who are physically able are recruited. Why? Coz training and coaching is available. I think we all know not all basketball players started out instinctively knowing basketball. A lot were "trained and coached" to be good if not the best ballplayers in the world, defense included.
    I'm not discounting skill or good coaching or practice, but those by themselves don't create a consistently good defender. And that's the big difference. Someone can defend for a game well, but can they defend well consistently? That's where the personality comes into it. Having the skill, background etc will give you the POTENTIAL to be a good defender, but your personality will allow you to become a consistently good defender. Bargnani has the physical skills to be a good defender, but even if he had the training, I don't believe he has the instincts or personality to consistently be a good defender.
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  3. #5983
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Well since we're talkin bout basketball in our own lives... I used to suck last year at basketball, I could never hit a contested shot I'd always get stuffed. After an entire summer of jump shots and layups I finally became the lights out shooter I wanted to be. And my quick release if virtually unblockable. Just goes to show that a little practice can go a long way.
    I've always said that a jumpshot is the easiest skill to learn in basketball. And this coming from a guy whose game revolves around the jumper.
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  4. #5984
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I never bought the argument that Aldridge would have been redundant. I thought Aldridge, while a little undersized, would have been fine at center playing beside Bosh in today's league. I also believed Aldridge was the best player available, so screw it whether or not he had too many similar skills as Bosh.
    Exactly. You can never have enough top quality bigs. It would be like San Antonio passing on Duncan because they already had Robinson. It's pretty much common knowledge that Bosh wanted Aldridge too, and was not happy with the Bargs pick.

    Whether CB and LA could be successful together ....... hmmmm? That's an interesting 'what if' scenario.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Knowing what I know now, I'd draft Roy and then trade him after year 3.
    Brilliant, Timmy. LOL.
    Last edited by golden; Wed Oct 5th, 2011 at 10:30 AM.

  5. #5985
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm not discounting skill or good coaching or practice, but those by themselves don't create a consistently good defender. And that's the big difference. Someone can defend for a game well, but can they defend well consistently? That's where the personality comes into it. Having the skill, background etc will give you the POTENTIAL to be a good defender, but your personality will allow you to become a consistently good defender. Bargnani has the physical skills to be a good defender, but even if he had the training, I don't believe he has the instincts or personality to consistently be a good defender.
    Agreed. But, correct me if im wrong, youre implying that "personality" is innate. And i dont think it is. It can be instilled. With Bargnani, he can definitely, in my opinion, develop instincts to be a good defender. And not just Bargnani, every single player can develop instincts to become a good defender, given the right coaching and training. The question is, is he willing to put the effort. And that has been the question all along.

  6. #5986
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Well since we're talkin bout basketball in our own lives... I used to suck last year at basketball, I could never hit a contested shot I'd always get stuffed. After an entire summer of jump shots and layups I finally became the lights out shooter I wanted to be. And my quick release if virtually unblockable. Just goes to show that a little practice can go a long way.
    Imagine if you had a trainer and a coach pointing out to you when to release, how to do the proper stance, followup, etc, do you think it wouldve taken you the entire summer to improve your shot? I think not.

    Doesnt matter if you practice till youre blue in the face, if you dont have the proper guidance, youll only see minimal to average improvement.

  7. #5987
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've always said that a jumpshot is the easiest skill to learn in basketball. And this coming from a guy whose game revolves around the jumper.
    Do you release at the top of your jump, or during your jump?

  8. #5988
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Agreed. But, correct me if im wrong, youre implying that "personality" is innate. And i dont think it is. It can be instilled. With Bargnani, he can definitely, in my opinion, develop instincts to be a good defender. And not just Bargnani, every single player can develop instincts to become a good defender, given the right coaching and training. The question is, is he willing to put the effort. And that has been the question all along.
    As Mr. Miyagi taught Daniel-san how to defeat Johnny in the original Karate Kid, I am pretty sure with the right teacher and principles anyone can learn how to be good at anything.

    But, you cannot instill someone the will to play hard on defense. You can only tell them what and how they should do something, but not make them want to do it. You can try to beat it into them as I'm sure some coaches have tried to do to some players, but in the end its really up to the player to want to play hard or to try and improve.

    Some kids are happy with getting a C in school. You can pay for tutors, and send them to the best schools with the top rated teachers in the world, yet if the kid is happy with a C then what can you do about it? If you bargain with them that they will get an xbox if they get an A, the kid might try hard for one exam, but once they get their reward they will fall back into their old habits because that's what they want to do.

    It is really up to the kid's (or player's) personality that would want them to be the best they can be. And you cannot really change that, unless if you are ruling them with an iron fist - then it might be possible.

    For example, if Bargnani got whipped with a cane for every defensive lapse, he might get better just so he doesn't get whipped again. Unfortunately we live in a society where caning is illegal.

  9. #5989
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Exactly. You can never have enough top quality bigs. It would be like San Antonio passing on Duncan because they already had Robinson.
    You're actually comparing Bosh to David Robinson? haha
    It's not similar at all. In my opinion at least.

    Robinson was an All-World CENTER.
    Duncan was an All-World FORWARD.

    Chris Bosh was an All-Star FORWARD.
    Aldridge is an All-Star FORWARD.
    Neither was seen as the "Next Big" anything. (And neither is capable of Playing Center. Especially not like a Hall-of-Fame Center.)

    With Robinson and Duncan, it was pretty obvious very early on in the process, that both were destined to be Hall-of-Famers.
    And both would eventually achieve this at different positions.
    There was never any question as to which position either one plays.

    You pair up LA and Bosh and I guarentee you there are questions about position.
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  10. #5990
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Agreed. But, correct me if im wrong, youre implying that "personality" is innate. And i dont think it is. It can be instilled. With Bargnani, he can definitely, in my opinion, develop instincts to be a good defender. And not just Bargnani, every single player can develop instincts to become a good defender, given the right coaching and training. The question is, is he willing to put the effort. And that has been the question all along.
    Ask all those women who thought they could change their man, how many did. Some? Sure. Most? No way.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Do you release at the top of your jump, or during your jump?
    Ideally, I release at the top of my jump. Obviously that sometimes changes due to circumstances.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    You're actually comparing Bosh to David Robinson? haha
    It's not similar at all. In my opinion at least.

    Robinson was an All-World CENTER.
    Duncan was an All-World FORWARD.

    Chris Bosh was an All-Star FORWARD.
    Aldridge is an All-Star FORWARD.
    Neither was seen as the "Next Big" anything. (And neither is capable of Playing Center. Especially not like a Hall-of-Fame Center.)

    With Robinson and Duncan, it was pretty obvious very early on in the process, that both were destined to be Hall-of-Famers.
    And both would eventually achieve this at different positions.
    There was never any question as to which position either one plays.

    You pair up LA and Bosh and I guarentee you there are questions about position.
    Obviously Duncan and Robinson are/were head and shoulders above Bosh and Aldridge, but the analogy is sound. Duncan was considered a center coming out of college (and still is to many). There were actually some questions as whether they could play together.

    In the NBA today, the Raptors could certainly have gotten away with playing Bosh and Aldridge together. There simply aren't a whole lot of true, dominant centers that would have caused problems for them, and they also has Nesterovic, who was a true center.
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  13. #5993
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    Besides, I had a LOT more questions about them drafting Bargnani than Aldridge. And it seems those questions were very valid ones.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    You're actually comparing Bosh to David Robinson? haha
    It's not similar at all. In my opinion at least.

    Robinson was an All-World CENTER.
    Duncan was an All-World FORWARD.

    Chris Bosh was an All-Star FORWARD.
    Aldridge is an All-Star FORWARD.
    Neither was seen as the "Next Big" anything. (And neither is capable of Playing Center. Especially not like a Hall-of-Fame Center.)

    With Robinson and Duncan, it was pretty obvious very early on in the process, that both were destined to be Hall-of-Famers.
    And both would eventually achieve this at different positions.
    There was never any question as to which position either one plays.

    You pair up LA and Bosh and I guarentee you there are questions about position.
    Truth be told, nowadays Duncan pretty much is considered a center. If I remember correctly the first time he was as on the all-start ballot as a center he was pretty annoyed about that. {off-topic} With Duncan's enormous skill set it pretty much depends on the availabity of other players on his team whether he plays center or power forward. They don't have any big on their team skilled enough defensively to play well defensively on either big position, which is the main reason (in my opinion) they slipped defensively. Bonner is just there to spread the floor and Dejuan Blair is just too small to be an impact big on a championship caliber team (which has to beat Dallas and The Lakers). {/off-topic}

  15. #5995
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    As Mr. Miyagi taught Daniel-san how to defeat Johnny in the original Karate Kid, I am pretty sure with the right teacher and principles anyone can learn how to be good at anything.

    But, you cannot instill someone the will to play hard on defense. You can only tell them what and how they should do something, but not make them want to do it. You can try to beat it into them as I'm sure some coaches have tried to do to some players, but in the end its really up to the player to want to play hard or to try and improve.

    Some kids are happy with getting a C in school. You can pay for tutors, and send them to the best schools with the top rated teachers in the world, yet if the kid is happy with a C then what can you do about it? If you bargain with them that they will get an xbox if they get an A, the kid might try hard for one exam, but once they get their reward they will fall back into their old habits because that's what they want to do.

    It is really up to the kid's (or player's) personality that would want them to be the best they can be. And you cannot really change that, unless if you are ruling them with an iron fist - then it might be possible.

    For example, if Bargnani got whipped with a cane for every defensive lapse, he might get better just so he doesn't get whipped again. Unfortunately we live in a society where caning is illegal.
    I think in a basketball setting, it can be done, and has definitely been done before.
    The NBA is not a playground where you can say "I dont want to do this" and get away with it. Bargnani probably has said "i dont want to do this" or felt like this in the past, but now he's been called out. His "will" might make him stubborn and not turn around his defense, but i think faced with the possibility of sitting on the bench and smaller salary might "will" him to put more effort on defense. If say Bargnani becomes a better defender next season because he got fed up being called a statue, and actually started playing good defense, would you say that he doesnt have the "will" to play defense? When the past 5 seasons he hasnt be playing "decent" defense? I never changed diapers and never had the "will" to change diapers before my son was born. But now i have a son, i have no choice but to change diapers. Or suffer the consequences. Stinky baby and a nagging wife. I have no "will" to change diapers, but i do a "decent"(at least i think i do) and acceptable job. Coz i have to. Players will defend well if you put them up to it.

    And just for the sake of argument, if you let a kid revert back to his old ways then thats on you. Youre the parent. A kid doesnt know any better. If you let the kid decide that all he wants in life is a C, then what kind of parent are you? Youre setting up your kid for a lifetime of mediocrity, and thats never the case, hence the phrase, "you only want whats best for them" And i can use this on Bargnani too. People say its spoon feeding but to me its proper training and coaching. If the guy has only known offense most of his career, why do you expect him to suddenly be a good defender on his own? You dont have to hold his hand, but proper coaching and training would probably do it.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Oct 5th, 2011 at 03:38 PM.

  16. #5996
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Ask all those women who thought they could change their man, how many did. Some? Sure. Most? No way.
    hahaha true true.

    But the woman tells you im pregnant and the kid comes out, wouldnt that change you? well, unless youre a total douche. People change. Be it thru free will or when faced with consequences, people will change.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Ideally, I release at the top of my jump. Obviously that sometimes changes due to circumstances.
    i release on the way up. I like the top release tho.
    Have they ever tried organizing pickup games for RR members?
    We always talk about basketball, we should play it!

  18. #5998
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    but i have problems at times, i need to play with more hustle. My friends and I usually play at break after we're finished eating(we basically have the whole gym to ourselves for 1 hour) but sometimes my friend would fool around and start hogging the ball and shooting fade away three's which kinda ruins the game. But when we're actually playing competitively i play pretty well, i still have ways to go though. And like Tim said it changes depending on the circumstances if im being defended by someone taller i'd quick release it over them andy rautins style(usually works) but if im wide open i take my time and release it at the top or mid way(works for me either way). Still need to work on driving to the lane and finishing

  19. #5999
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    hahaha true true.

    But the woman tells you im pregnant and the kid comes out, wouldnt that change you? well, unless youre a total douche. People change. Be it thru free will or when faced with consequences, people will change.
    Well, I'm probably not the guy to answer that. I was never a dick, to begin with and have been married for a very long time. I do know a lot of divorced couples, though.

    And there's a difference between someone naturally maturing with age, and someone changing their personality. Someone who wasn't competitive isn't going to turn into someone who is really competitive. Someone who can't stop working and doing things isn't going to suddenly turn into a couch potato.
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  20. #6000
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    I'd take Bargnani because of Roy's health issues as well. Roy has a fat contract as well. Expect the Blazers to nuke it if the CBA negotiations keep moving in the direction they're heading towards.

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