View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6201
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    Maybe Bargnani worried that Italian taxes will go through the roof for the rich. And I think he's probably got reason to worry. Probably a very smart move. Even if he's traded to the US, I can see him continuing to go through with it for that reason.
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  2. #6202
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    We can get Andrea, but we can't get the Red Rocket?

  3. #6203
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Maybe Bargnani worried that Italian taxes will go through the roof for the rich. And I think he's probably got reason to worry. Probably a very smart move. Even if he's traded to the US, I can see him continuing to go through with it for that reason.
    He'd wouldn't qualify then. Matt Bonner is married to a Canadian and he cant get his citizenship. I think you have to have a permanent residence in Canada and live there x amount of time.

  4. #6204
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    its going to be awkward when he gets traded a week into the season
    @jerboat

  5. #6205
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He'd wouldn't qualify then. Matt Bonner is married to a Canadian and he cant get his citizenship. I think you have to have a permanent residence in Canada and live there x amount of time.
    It depends on what they count Bargnani's 5 years he's been with the Raptors. Mat Bonner was only with the Raptors for 2 years, obviously not enough time to establish residency. Working against Bargnani, is the amount of time he spent out of Canada during the offseason. I wonder whether this is something long in the works or more something spur of the moment. If it had been in the works for a while, then you'd think he'd have spent more of the offseason in Canada.

    I have an American friend who was married to a Canadian and lived in Canada for 10 years before becoming a Canadian citizen. Of course, the length of time was more due to him not doing anything about it than any problems trying to get it done.
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  6. #6206
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    he's changing his name to Andy Barns.

  7. #6207
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    I believe you need proof of three years of residency and hold permanent resident status.

  8. #6208
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It depends on what they count Bargnani's 5 years he's been with the Raptors. Mat Bonner was only with the Raptors for 2 years, obviously not enough time to establish residency. Working against Bargnani, is the amount of time he spent out of Canada during the offseason. I wonder whether this is something long in the works or more something spur of the moment. If it had been in the works for a while, then you'd think he'd have spent more of the offseason in Canada.

    I have an American friend who was married to a Canadian and lived in Canada for 10 years before becoming a Canadian citizen. Of course, the length of time was more due to him not doing anything about it than any problems trying to get it done.
    I remember reading a piece on immigration rules and that there is a class of immigration called the "business or investor" class. Have a certain amount of money for investment in Canada and voila! The cash/bank balance should be no problem for AB of course...come to think of it he wants to move all his funds here....and he could easily invest a bit in the pasta outfit he was shilling for last year and he becomes a "businessman" and an investor.

  9. #6209
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    He would need 20k in liquid assets (If I remember correctly). That would qualify him for Permanent Residence. He still would need to reside in Canada, pay taxes, etc for three years. Any time outside of Canada (including road games) can slow down the process.

  10. #6210
    Raptors Republic Starter Hassan's Avatar
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    smart move by bargnani, italian credit crunch is gonna hit the rich hard

  11. #6211
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    its going to be awkward when he gets traded a week into the season
    he sooner he better, ed davis is far better than bargs
    "the raptors were my fav team growing up"-kevin durant

  12. #6212
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    Quote knickz wrote: View Post
    he sooner he better, ed davis is far better than bargs
    The "t" isn't working on your keyboard.
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  13. #6213
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    We can get Andrea, but we can't get the Red Rocket?
    I believe Bonner is only interested in becoming Canadian when there is Canadian basketball glory to be had. Plus he only spent 2 years here, that may not be enough consecutive time.

  14. #6214
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    Bonner's Grandfather is/was Canadian, his wife is Canadian (obviously), he spends a great deal of the off season here as well. So him becoming Canadian is more legit than dodging taxes. He has a family history here. But yeah, it will be tough for him to become a citizen while playing in a US city. Not impossible, but difficult.

  15. #6215
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    its going to be awkward when he gets traded a week into the season
    lol

  16. #6216
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    ...everybody's calling for Bargnani to improve his defense and rebounding, and IF he does improve this season, people are still lobbying for him to get traded. Im kinda confused.
    I guess for some people, Bargnani is such a poor rebounder and defender, that even significant improvements would leave him below average in those regards.

    IMO, being a good help-defender relies more on instincts than training. It's a trait that has never been part of Bargnani's game, and it's not something that can be worked on in the offseason, or in 1-on-1 workouts. And I don't think Casey's influence can make much difference either.

    As Tim mentioned, any improvements in Bargnani's rebounding/defense is more likely be temporary, rather than a permanent transformation of Bargnani's personality.

  17. #6217
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I guess for some people, Bargnani is such a poor rebounder and defender, that even significant improvements would leave him below average in those regards.

    IMO, being a good help-defender relies more on instincts than training. It's a trait that has never been part of Bargnani's game, and it's not something that can be worked on in the offseason, or in 1-on-1 workouts. And I don't think Casey's influence can make much difference either.

    As Tim mentioned, any improvements in Bargnani's rebounding/defense is more likely be temporary, rather than a permanent transformation of Bargnani's personality.
    Well, IF he does improve significantly, and by significantly i would say 1-3 more rebounds on average, then that wouldnt put him below average. 1 additional rebound would put him in the Top 30, and 2 more would be him in the Top 20, and thats for both PF/C (based on 2010/2011 stats).

    I respect your opinion. And you could be right. But my contention with this argument has always been that players can be conditioned. There have been players who played a different sport till they were 15, got introduced to basketball and were trained to excel in the sport. Trainers and coaches are hired to train and coach every player. They dont "classify" players and train them only on one aspect of the game. If they see one guy has a need on one aspect, they train them harder on that. Thats how you develop a player's all around game, defense and offense included. If the Magic surrendered to the fact that Howard had no offensive instincts, would he have been the player he is now? Instead, they got Patrick Ewing to train with him.

  18. #6218
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Two reasons we're calling for the trade of Bargnani even if he improves his defense and rebounding. Both very important.

    The first is that even if Bargnani improves, there's no guarantee it won't be temporary. He's had a history of playing well in spurts, but it's something he's never been able to maintain. Eventually, most people fall back to their old ways. Bargnani doesn't have the type of personality that would lead me to believe he has the type of intensity it takes to change the type of player he is. I've seen way, way, way too many players in similar situations as Bargnani who have never been able to turn things around for more than a season. To me, it makes sense to trade him when his value is highest, and let someone else worry about it.

    Secondly, even if Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding, will it be enough for him to be able to be the type of big man who can contribute meaningful minutes on a contender without being a liability on defense and on the boards? Amare Stoudemire is a much better rebounder and defender than Bargnani, but I still wouldn't want a guy like that on my team because he'll end up hurting you in the playoffs. Same goes for Zach Randolph and Carlos Boozer.

    To win a Championship, in the NBA, you need to be a very good defensive team, and that usually starts with your front line. If you truly want to build a Championship team, it just makes too much sense not to keep a guy like Bargnani on the team.
    Just want to make it clear that this argument is based on the fact that he improves. Coz if he doesnt, i too want him traded.

    Im not sure how you came up with "history of playing well in spurts, but it's something he's never been able to maintain". I looked at his yahoo game logs from 2006 to 2011 and its pretty much consistent within each year. Well there are a string of games where he would score 20+ pts then one game he'd only get 15 or even 11 then couple more games in 20s. IMO, thats just normal. Players have bad games. Players get tired. Players get minor injuries that we dont always hear about (muscle soreness, stiffness etc). Again, same with my post before, if he's performing at his highest value, why not make use of it? If Amir avgs 15pts this year and he never avg that in his career, that would skyrocket his trade value, should we trade him coz he might go back to his below double-digit avg? If Demar avgs 35% 3PTFG this year, should we trade him coz that never happened before and he might regress next year? Instead of letting someone else "worry about it" why not take advantage of it?

    See this is the thing ive been saying all along. The man cant win. We want him to improve his defense and rebounding, if he improves, will it be at par with the others. If he continues to improve and becomes at par with the others, is it enough for him to become a franchise player, if he becomes a franchise player, is he good enough to become an elite player, and it goes on and on. IMO, if he improves his defense and rebounding, a frontcourt of him and JV would be pretty good. Will it be enough to win a title? probably not. but if the Raps address the wing issue and by some luck acquire an elite player in the draft, demar avg 25/5/5, they get a really good PG, then yeah, title contention could be in the picture. But what im saying here is Bargnani is not the key to winning a title, he could be part of it, but its not just him who needs to improve but rather the whole team.

    I too want this team to win a championship, i think every poster here does. But you, being a realist, should know there's no way theyre contending for a title anyways within the next 5 years, unless that cap space nets them an elite player or two and the draft gives them a potential elite player. The Thunder, who pretty much is what every young team is being patterned to, is already in Durant's 5th year and they havent even reached the conference finals. Last year was pretty much a fluke IMO. They went thru a melo-less nuggets and a gay-less memphis. Im pretty sure those series wouldve been different if those two played with their respective teams. But thats a whole different discussion.

    IF, and again, a big IF, Bargnani improves, IMO, he can be an integral part of this Raptor team, possibly as a contender.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Dec 6th, 2011 at 05:16 PM.

  19. #6219
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Just want to make it clear that this argument is based on the fact that he improves. Coz if he doesnt, i too want him traded.

    Im not sure how you came up with "history of playing well in spurts, but it's something he's never been able to maintain". I looked at his yahoo game logs from 2006 to 2011 and its pretty much consistent within each year. Well there are a string of games where he would score 20+ pts then one game he'd only get 15 or even 11 then couple more games in 20s. IMO, thats just normal. Players have bad games. Players get tired. Players get minor injuries that we dont always hear about (muscle soreness, stiffness etc). Again, same with my post before, if he's performing at his highest value, why not make use of it? If Amir avgs 15pts this year and he never avg that in his career, that would skyrocket his trade value, should we trade him coz he might go back to his below double-digit avg? If Demar avgs 35% 3PTFG this year, should we trade him coz that never happened before and he might regress next year? Instead of letting someone else "worry about it" why not take advantage of it?

    See this is the thing ive been saying all along. The man cant win. We want him to improve his defense and rebounding, if he improves, will it be at par with the others. If he continues to improve and becomes at par with the others, is it enough for him to become a franchise player, if he becomes a franchise player, is he good enough to become an elite player, and it goes on and on. IMO, if he improves his defense and rebounding, a frontcourt of him and JV would be pretty good. Will it be enough to win a title? probably not. but if the Raps address the wing issue and by some luck acquire an elite player in the draft, demar avg 25/5/5, they get a really good PG, then yeah, title contention could be in the picture. But what im saying here is Bargnani is not the key to winning a title, he could be part of it, but its not just him who needs to improve but rather the whole team.

    I too want this team to win a championship, i think every poster here does. But you, being a realist, should know there's no way theyre contending for a title anyways within the next 5 years, unless that cap space nets them an elite player or two and the draft gives them a potential elite player. The Thunder, who pretty much is what every young team is being patterned to, is already in Durant's 5th year and they havent even reached the conference finals. Last year was pretty much a fluke IMO. They went thru a melo-less nuggets and a gay-less memphis. Im pretty sure those series wouldve been different if those two played with their respective teams. But thats a whole different discussion.

    IF, and again, a big IF, Bargnani improves, IMO, he can be an integral part of this Raptor team, possibly as a contender.
    I find it very difficult to feel sorry for Bargnani because he dug his own grave. If he'd shown any improvement on defense and rebounding since he was drafted, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we haven't. Even Bryan Colangelo has become publicly frustrated with him. The man is going to be making $10 million a season over the next 4 years despite not being one of the more hard working Raptors. How can you say he can't win? If it was any other player he would have been traded by now.

    My question to you, is, if he does FINALLY improve his rebounding and defense so it is average this season, what makes you think he will sustain it? We've seen plenty of players over the years, who've been in the NBA as long as Bargnani has, who have shown temporary improvements, but 9 times out of 10 it's just a blip on the radar. Bargnani has never shown the focus or the sustained work ethic to make me believe he can change the type of player he is.

    Think of a person making a New Years resolution to start going to the gym regularly. At first, many of them do. And there are certain types of people that will continue with it, but the vast majority can't sustain it. It takes a certain type of dedication and most people don't have that.

    That's the big difference between DeRozan and Bargnani. With DeRozan, we've seen consistent and sustained improvements, especially in his weakest areas, in the two years he's been in the league. With Bargnani we haven't. DeRozan has shown a focus and determination from day one. That doesn't mean he's going to turn into an All-Star, but if I'm going to bet on someone to continue improving, it's going to be DeRozan for that very reason. He's got a drive that most players simply don't possess. Bargnani has never shown that drive.

    Plus, even with improvement, I don't see him ever becoming good enough defensively NOT to be a liability on that end. And that's not something that is conducive to winning in the playoffs.
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  20. #6220
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    My question to you, is, if he does FINALLY improve his rebounding and defense so it is average this season, what makes you think he will sustain it? We've seen plenty of players over the years, who've been in the NBA as long as Bargnani has, who have shown temporary improvements, but 9 times out of 10 it's just a blip on the radar. Bargnani has never shown the focus or the sustained work ethic to make me believe he can change the type of player he is.
    Actually, performance management theory predicts that if he DID make some changes to improve his rebounding/defense it would be relatively straightforward to help him maintain the effort with nothing more than positive reinforcement from his coaches, management and peers. You wouldn't have to provide negative reinforcement to punish him if he relapsed, just withhold any more positive.

    If Bargnani is not trying, it is because he is getting more Positive Immediate Consequences for lack of effort than Negative Immediate Consequences. The coaching staff need to find out what motivates this guy, what he considers a positive consequence or what he would consider a negative consequence. Bad publicity back home is embarrassing to him? Feed reports to the Italian press about his lack of effort so he gets hell from fans in his home country. Does he like the coach to pat him on the head in front of the other players? Then lost of praise. Does he care what his mother thinks? Then get her down in the front row seats for every game.

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