View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8621
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    First bold:
    Bargnani: 27 yaer old PF already entered int o a decline with serious injury history. Has only played in his rookie and 2nd year and has not led his team to anything other than lottery picks in the last 4 years.

    Also Boozer is a major part of the Bulls team. Boozer has done more for Chicago with his left nut than Bargnani has done for Toronto in the last 3 seasons. Boozer's addition to Chicago in his first year saw a 41-41 team go to 62-20. Boozer has been a part of two East #1 seed teams and this year, minus a franchise player, the Bulls are a #5 seed team with him the 2nd leading scorer and rebounder playing the 3rd most minutes.

    Second bold:
    I did not make that argument but thanks for putting words in to my mouth. My argument has always been about adding talent. Rudy Gay is a major talent upgrade on the wing. Likewise, adding Carlos Boozer and subtracting Andrea Bargnani is a major talent upgrade to the post.

    To your ideas of playing a bit faster, consider this: 7 games with Gay Raps ahve 91.6 possessions per game; 7 games before Gay Raps had 95.6 possessions per game. Raptors are actually playing slower WITH Gay. Realizing the Raps are actually playing slower (once you get past the highlight reel footage as a result of their defense that usually features wings and not bigs) and watching the games it becomes obvious that the Raps could use a low post scoring threat which Boozer is shooting 68% at the rim on 5.2 attempts per game.

    To your ideas of Boozer clogging the lane: How can JV and Amir play together but not clog the key yet JV and Boozer or Amir and Boozer cannot? Jonas shoots 40% from 16-23 feet on 0.9 attempts per game. Amir shoots 36% from 16-23 feet on 1.9 attempts per game. Boozer shoots 37% on 3.6 attempts per game. Also, who says Boozer clogs the key? From my recollection he played some nice pick and roll ball in Utah.

    Third bold:
    It is now obvious you are making shit up as the facts above clearly don't support your arguments/opinions. Do you work for MLSE and if not how can you make this statement? The infamous separate meetings of Colangelo and Casey with MLSE board was on December 14th with Bargnani being injured on December 10th and just returning February 6th at which point he played 24 minutes and 29 minutes of productive ball only to miss a game and return the last 2 games as the worthless sack of poop he was earlier in the year with 18 and 12 minutes per game.
    So, first off, IMHO, the biggest difference in Boozer's first year was actually Derrick Rose becoming an MVP. That'll help get you some wins when that guy starts hitting his potential. Boozer missed.....23 games that year. I don't want to bother checking the amount, but I'm pretty sure Noah missed a big chunk of games too. Rose held that team together and willed them to a strong season. Having an MVP candidate will do that. Did having Boozer help the team? Sure, but of that win jump, I'd put most of it on Rose taking that next step to join the company of the true elite. I'm not suggesting Bargs has done a lot for this team, but he was being asked to be the #1 guy(which is a problem). If he were playing on the 10-11 Bulls, I don't know that they wouldn't still win 60+ games...

    Sorry, I didn't want to go back and check all the old forums. My bad. I know you were a strong supporter of the Gay trade. And I know that one of the arguments that had been made in general was that a change of scenery would do him good, in large part because he'd get to be utilized in a more perimeter oriented offense. We are playing slower, but I don't think it is the pace Casey wants the team to play at. Just my opinion, but a couple of things have hurt that.
    -First, simplifying some of what they do as they integrate Gay.
    -Second, without Jose we obviously have lost our best distributor and someone who really helped keep the offense from getting stale. Lowry has just started to look like he's coming back around physically, so hopefully he's able to pick his play back up and make some difference there. Lucas also is clearly horrible at getting the team into any kind of offense.
    I would expect the pace to pick up as they integrate Gay, and hopefully if they can get a better backup PG, that will help as well. Do they need a low-post scoring threat? Or do they just need time to tweak their sets...maybe post up Gay more (where he has been good at initiating ball movement)? Start trying to utilize JV there more (I know he's a rookie, but the amount of times he has good position even without needing the pick'n'roll and doesn't get the ball is just crazy)??? It's a little premature to suggest we know what this team needs when it has barely played and practiced together. *Maybe part of the reason BC would hesitate with this deal? If it wasn't his first choice, it might be hard to accept without seeing more of the team as is to be confident it's a good move. It could still be there in the summer, if BC would rather wait it out.

    Whoa man, calm the hell down. Making shit up? Even though Bargnani was injured before the meeting, I am just going by the rumors in the newspapers. The message of which seemed to be BC needed to let Casey coach, whether he was explicitely giving him orders or just somehow pressuring him. Part of this was the fact that Bargs continued to seem to not be held accountable, and that in general there seemed to be a lack of clarity as to accountability. Maybe it was Casey. Maybe that's why they wanted the separate meetings, to decide if it was intentional tampering by BC, and maybe it wasn't. Maybe the board wanted to see Casey's view on the accountability to ask him why a guy like Ed or Terrence gets a quick hook, but Bargs or Demar don't? Whatever happened, there seemed to be a much clearer message and new accountability from top to bottom with the team after that meeting. So i was merely trying to suggest, I wouldn't want another situation where Casey (for whatever reason) feels the need make adjustments to try and keep Boozer happy/on the floor, whether it has to do with how they run the offense, or not holding him to the same defensive standards....I like the way the team's chemistry has developed, including the coaching/management dynamic, and don't want to see another stretch where it gets botched and needs to be repaired. And yes, I know it could be extremely unlikely...but who knows...
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14th, 2013 at 08:46 PM.

  2. #8622
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    So amnesty him then. There are MANY options available in the 'rid yourself of Bargs' vein that don't involve bringing back a ridiculously overpaid PF on the decline.

    You keep making this about getting rid of Bargs. My stance is you don't need to get rid of him at all costs. Trading for Boozer (and they are NOT throwing in a 1st rounder) is an at-all-costs move. Millsap? Sure, but a pipedream, most likely. Ilyasova? Maybe, probably. Boozer, no. There's no freaking way you can convince me he's "better on the books" than Bargnani.

    Sit him on the bench and move him in the summer for peanuts. Who cares? You don't. You just want him out of a Raptors uniform. So let's get a return that doesn't hamstring the team going forward.
    lol - amnesty him? Write him a cheque for $23M (minus whatever a team bids) to walk away and watch a team pick him up returning NOTHING to Toronto? lol - really? Then once he is gone, the Raps are still $8M over the cap and still limited to the MLE or a sign and trade with one less asset now (well, no less assets that matter). Where are the Raptors going to not only replace but increase Bargnani's scoring and more than double his rebounding on $5M per season?

    Obviously there is no convincing you. I just broke it down and you refuse to accept it or think I am full of shit - which is certainly a semi-valid opinion.

    Personally I think you are delusional of Bargnani's value and contribution to winning. I also think you are ignorant to a player due to his contract despite the fact he would immediately become one of the top 3 or 4 players on the Raptors and has been a major part of playoff teams every year since 2005-2006 and a part of teams who finished the regular season at .500 or better every season since 2004-2005.

    The Raptors are already over the salary cap and luxury tax next season and over the cap in 2014-2015. Boozer's contract would be coming off the books (and possibly a trade chip) at the same time as Gay is due for a new contract and the Raptors have just $19M on the books for 2015-16 (DD, JV, TR).
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  3. #8623

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    AB is no spark of the bench. Last night he had 3 chances for a rebound in a sequence and got zero. He did have a block in this sequence but Knicks eventually scored. He gives no effort to go for ball unless it drops in his lap. Casey knows it but at least now Casey is playing to win games not appease the golden boy.
    He was being sarcastic...

  4. #8624
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    So, first off, IMHO, the biggest difference in Boozer's first year was actually Derrick Rose becoming an MVP. That'll help get you some wins when that guy starts hitting his potential. Boozer missed.....23 games that year. I don't want to bother checking the amount, but I'm pretty sure Noah missed a big chunk of games too. Rose held that team together and willed them to a strong season. Having an MVP candidate will do that. Did having Boozer help the team? Sure, but of that win jump, I'd put most of it on Rose taking that next step to join the company of the true elite. I'm not suggesting Bargs has done a lot for this team, but he was being asked to be the #1 guy. If he were playing on the 10-11 Bulls, I don't know that they wouldn't still win 60+ games...

    Sorry, I didn't want to go back and check all the old forums. My bad. I know you were a strong supporter of the Gay trade. And I know that one of the arguments that had been made in general was that a change of scenery would do him good, in large part because he'd get to be utilized in a more perimeter oriented offense. We are playing slower, but I don't think it is the pace Casey wants the team to play at. Just my opinion, but a couple of things have hurt that.
    -First, simplifying some of what they do as they integrate Gay.
    -Second, without Jose we obviously have lost our best distributor and someone who really helped keep the offense from getting stale. Lowry has just started to look like he's coming back around physically, so hopefully he's able to pick his play back up and make some difference there. Lucas also is clearly horrible at getting the team into any kind of offense.
    I would expect the pace to pick up as they integrate Gay, and hopefully if they can get a better backup PG, that will help as well. Do they need a low-post scoring threat? Or do they just need time to tweak their sets...maybe post up Gay more (where he has been good at initiating ball movement)? Start trying to utilize JV there more (I know he's a rookie, but the amount of times he has good position even without needing the pick'n'roll and doesn't get the ball is just crazy)??? It's a little premature to suggest we know what this team needs when it has barely played and practiced together. *Maybe part of the reason BC would hesitate with this deal? If it wasn't his first choice, it might be hard to accept without seeing more of the team as is to be confident it's a good move. It could still be there in the summer, if BC would rather wait it out.

    Whoa man, calm the hell down. Making shit up? Even though Bargnani was injured before the meeting, I am just going by the rumors in the newspapers. The message of which seemed to be BC needed to let Casey coach, whether he was explicitely giving him orders or just somehow pressuring him. Part of this was the fact that Bargs continued to seem to not be held accountable, and that in general there seemed to be a lack of clarity as to accountability. Maybe it was Casey. Maybe that's why they wanted the separate meetings, to decide if it was intentional tampering by BC, and maybe it wasn't. Maybe the board wanted to see Casey's view on the accountability to ask him why a guy like Ed or Terrence gets a quick hook, but Bargs or Demar don't? Whatever happened, there seemed to be a much clearer message and new accountability from top to bottom with the team after that meeting. So i was merely trying to suggest, I wouldn't want another situation where Casey (for whatever reason) feels the need make adjustments to try and keep Boozer happy/on the floor, whether it has to do with how they run the offense, or not holding him to the same defensive standards....I like the way the team's chemistry has developed, including the coaching/management dynamic, and don't want to see another stretch where it gets botched and needs to be repaired.
    Basketball is a team game and Boozer has contributed to winning for the last 7 years in the league.

    Listen, I'm basing all my arguments on financial numbers, CBA rules, statistics (both simple and advanced), and other teams successes with Boozer as a major part of it. I am more than willing to agree to disagree. But I've yet to see any argument based on something other than someone's opinion that validates the notion that trading for Bargnani for Boozer is a bad move for the Raptors franchise. It does not add up in the accounting books or on the court (production and cost of Bargnani/full MLE vs. Boozer/mini-MLE). I would like to see something based on more than unsubstantiated opinions or views.

    Regarding the bold, I think it is pretty obvious the team needs to move on from Bargnani. When you have one of the worst contracts in the league and amnestying him does nothing to help you, you have to recognize you are not going to get an ideal situation. Much like Gay's $17M contract, if Gay was paid $12M there would have been very little uproar over his contact. If Boozer was paid $10M like David West (who Boozer is actually one year younger than) or even $11M, I don't think there would be any issue with this trade. The years are the same.
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  5. #8625
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    lol - amnesty him? Write him a cheque for $23M (minus whatever a team bids) to walk away and watch a team pick him up returning NOTHING to Toronto? lol - really? Then once he is gone, the Raps are still $8M over the cap and still limited to the MLE or a sign and trade with one less asset now (well, no less assets that matter). Where are the Raptors going to not only replace but increase Bargnani's scoring and more than double his rebounding on $5M per season?

    The Raptors are already over the salary cap and luxury tax next season and over the cap in 2014-2015. Boozer's contract would be coming off the books (and possibly a trade chip) at the same time as Gay is due for a new contract and the Raptors have just $19M on the books for 2015-16 (DD, JV, TR).
    I definitely agree with you that it's stupid to amnesty him.

    And on the other stuff...Boozer could be a good chip...but also, as is, only JV, Demar and Ross figure to be signed at that time*, which is the 19 million I assume??...So really, that only matters if BC considers it a bonus over, say trading for Pau in the summer (I don't know, just throwing shit out there) which would stagger the money coming off, but create a much different situation (probably a worse one for being FA players).
    *And possibly Acy at a very tiny team option....
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14th, 2013 at 09:05 PM.

  6. #8626
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Listen, I'm basing all my arguments on financial numbers, CBA rules, statistics (both simple and advanced), and other teams successes with Boozer as a major part of it. I am more than willing to agree to disagree. But I've yet to see any argument based on something other than someone's opinion that validates the notion that trading for Bargnani for Boozer is a bad move for the Raptors franchise. It does not add up in the accounting books or on the court (production and cost of Bargnani/full MLE vs. Boozer/mini-MLE). I would like to see something based on more than unsubstantiated opinions or views.

    Regarding the bold, I think it is pretty obvious the team needs to move on from Bargnani. When you have one of the worst contracts in the league and amnestying him does nothing to help you, you have to recognize you are not going to get an ideal situation. Much like Gay's $17M contract, if Gay was paid $12M there would have been very little uproar over his contact. If Boozer was paid $10M like David West (who Boozer is actually one year younger than) or even $11M, I don't think there would be any issue with this trade. The years are the same.
    You might be right on that, but I also still think, as it seems you do, that it is not a great option in terms of the players they could try to add, just that it's better than keeping Bargs. So I will keep hoping that they do not want to take this deal. Frankly, though I see the need to be rid of Bargs, I also don't mind the franchise waiting if they don't like what offers they have. I do think a Boozer deal would still be there in the summer(and maybe then they can get a 2014 1st rder thrown in??) , as will a Gasol deal maybe if they prefer that(which doesn't seem likely in season), if they want to go that route. Not sure if there's a big market for Boozer. Don't remember seeing him connected to another team.

    I just don't see it as a move that needs to be made now at all...even if it ends up being what they do...With the Bulls, this scenario is probably the only one where the Raps are dealing from a position of strength, so they should be patient if they don't think it's the best trade.
    Do you go for what's available now or do you maintain your preferred targets and find a way to acquire them? I think this is the question it comes down too....and I'd go the latter route if Boozer is what's available now...keep trying to get a different deal and only take this one if you feel you have no choice in the end....with the offseason being the end.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14th, 2013 at 09:13 PM.

  7. #8627
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I definitely agree with you that it's stupid to amnesty him.

    And on the other stuff...Boozer could be a good chip...but also, as is, only JV, Demar and Ross figure to be signed at that time, which is the 19 million I assume??...So really, that only matters if BC considers it a bonus over, say trading for Pau in the summer (I don't know, just throwing shit out there) which would stagger the money coming off, but create a much different situation (probably a worse one for being FA players).
    JV, DeMar, and Ross are signed for 2015-16 for a combined $19M.

    Boozer's last season on the books for Toronto would be 2014-15. Boozer is either a trade chip in February 2015 or cap space in July.

    I don't think trading for Pau does much for Toronto in terms of free agency because in 2014 Raps are still just $8M below cap without a starting PG. However, when it comes to trading where cap holds don't impact salary cap space for the purpose of satisfying CBA requirements, Gasol would be an advantage. I would prefer Gasol over Boozer but think Gasol will be much more difficult to acquire due to current Raptor cap situation, Laker situation, and Raptor trade assets.

    I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.
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  8. #8628
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    JV, DeMar, and Ross are signed for 2015-16 for a combined $19M.

    Boozer's last season on the books for Toronto would be 2014-15. Boozer is either a trade chip in February 2015 or cap space in July.

    I don't think trading for Pau does much for Toronto in terms of free agency because in 2014 Raps are still just $8M below cap without a starting PG. However, when it comes to trading where cap holds don't impact salary cap space for the purpose of satisfying CBA requirements, Gasol would be an advantage. I would prefer Gasol over Boozer but think Gasol will be much more difficult to acquire due to current Raptor cap situation, Laker situation, and Raptor trade assets.

    I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.
    I've talked myself into it too.

  9. #8629
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.
    I'm stilll hoping if it's an in-season move, it's Ilyasova or bust....Boozer and Gasol are good targets for the summer. And given UTH or ATL wouldn't want Bargs and it would be hard to make another deal work, the offseason and a sign and trade would also probably be the time to pursue Millsap (Who is up there with Ilyasova as my top 2 choices in no particular order...depending on how big a role they want the player to fill) or Smith (who I don't want at all, just subjectively).

  10. #8630
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    You might be right on that, but I also still think, as it seems you do, that it is not a great option in terms of the players they could try to add, just that it's better than keeping Bargs. So I will keep hoping that they do not want to take this deal. Frankly, though I see the need to be rid of Bargs, I also don't mind the franchise waiting if they don't like what offers they have. I do think a Boozer deal would still be there in the summer(and maybe then they can get a 2014 1st rder thrown in??) , as will a Gasol deal maybe if they prefer that(which doesn't seem likely in season), if they want to go that route. Not sure if there's a big market for Boozer. Don't remember seeing him connected to another team.

    I just don't see it as a move that needs to be made now at all...even if it ends up being what they do...With the Bulls, this scenario is probably the only one where the Raps are dealing from a position of strength, so they should be patient if they don't think it's the best trade.
    Do you go for what's available now or do you maintain your preferred targets and find a way to acquire them? I think this is the question it comes down too....and I'd go the latter route if Boozer is what's available now...keep trying to get a different deal and only take this one if you feel you have no choice in the end.
    I don't think Chicago will ever be as desperate to unload him as they are going to be in the next 7 days due to the CBA rules that luxury tax/yearly payroll is determined by the total of contracts on books as of last day of regular season game. That means February 21st is the last day to shed contracts. If you can get a 1st rd pick out of the Bulls, do it.

    Considering the Raps are 17-13 in last 30 (12-11 without Gay), I think adding Boozer to the mix/subtracting Bargnani makes 19-10 over last 29 semi reasonable. I'd like to see the trade done sooner than later considering the ramifications of Toronto making the playoffs this season.
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  11. #8631
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I'm stilll hoping if it's an in-season move, it's Ilyasova or bust....Boozer and Gasol are good targets for the summer. And given UTH or ATL wouldn't want Bargs and it would be hard to make another deal work, the offseason and a sign and trade would also probably be the time to pursue Millsap (Who is up there with Ilyasova as my top 2 choices in no particular order...depending on how big a role they want the player to fill) or Smith (who I don't want at all, just subjectively).
    Ilyasova is my preferred trade acquisition as well but as mentioned in previous reply, if Boozer only option, I'd take it. Playoffs for this season seem realistic given Raps are 17-13 in previous 30 games (with 3 blown 20-point leads) and 19-10 over final 29 gets them 40 wins.
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  12. #8632
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Don't worry about the cap if Bell and Rogers are not. The key is putting a winning team on the court.
    I'm not worried about spending money. I was simply pointing out that amnestying Bargnani isn't going to be some magic elixir that suddenly opens up a world of possibilities in the offseason. The Raps need to dump salary (ie: Kleiza) just to have access to all their exceptions. To go after a player worth more than $5M, the Raps would need to do so in a trade (or a S&T) involving either Bargnani or DeRozan, in order for salaries to balance and have the trade work under the CBA.

  13. #8633
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't think Chicago will ever be as desperate to unload him as they are going to be in the next 7 days due to the CBA rules that luxury tax/yearly payroll is determined by the total of contracts on books as of last day of regular season game. That means February 21st is the last day to shed contracts. If you can get a 1st rd pick out of the Bulls, do it.
    Yeah, I agree with that, I was just saying that they may be desperate now, but they will still be in the summer, right? With Gibson's extension kicking in and having to round out the roster even with minimum contracts, they'lll have a hard time improving their situation...I don't know. It's a tough call. I don't know how much I value a pick for this year. And I don't know if maybe I'd value a 2014 pick more if it can be squeezed out of them in the offseason. Maybe ask for it now. IF they give in, I might take it.
    *It's extra good to get that now over the summer if that's the best deal...You get Boozer, definitely improve playoff chances. You keep the pick from the Lowry trade this year. You go into next year a playoff team, with a 2014 pick as well.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14th, 2013 at 09:40 PM.

  14. #8634
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    So, with things quieted down as they inevitably do before the deadline (the final storm)...I was pondering what would I be willing to do to get this deal done??? All the talk of Boozer has left me thinking....if people are willing to take on 15 million a year of Boozer, what throw ins will they accept with Ilyasova, who at 7.9 mill, makes a pretty large sum less than Boozer...
    Candidates as I see them:
    -Ekpe Udoh....if the Bucks don't see him in future plans, they may want to create an open roster space soon, and he'd be among the better options (as he could be a backup C/F) on their roster. His contract could be up next season (4.5ish million), and if we don't see him in future plans, we don't have to give him a qualifying offer and can renounce him.

    -Drew Gooden....Just as long as Boozer/Bargs contracts...making 6.7ish million per season expiring in 2015. He's a piece of crap that can't be amnestied....but to put things in perspective, adding his contract to Ilyasova still commits less money than going after Boozer (roughly 14.5 million against 15+) over the next 2+ seasons. I want Ilyasova and I'm still not sure I'd do this. I'd say if they took Kleiza it'd help, but the Raps can just amnesty Kleiza if that's what it comes to, though I suppose if they'd take him now, it couldn't hurt. Will Gooden be able to even provide any help even as a backup C/F or end up being the most overpaid 6th big in the NBA since Yogi Stewart graced Toronto with his presence?

    -Udrih, Dalembert...only because of expiring contracts. Both could be stopgap depth players. I really don't want Dalembert. Don't like players that bring a fresh bag of crazy to every situation they touch. Udrih would be fine, but I feel like they'll try to use him in a better deal or let him expire. These are obvious players they could probably move, but I doubt either ends up doing so in a Bargs trade.

    So if the worst thing we can take is Gooden, would you??? Hard to say I would, but I can't say I wouldn't.
    *Note, damn hard to work the salaries of this trade...would pretty much require them taking back Kleiza, or being willing to part with someone like Gray (I think a solid value player).
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14th, 2013 at 10:12 PM.

  15. #8635
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    So, with things quieted down as they inevitably do before the deadline (the final storm)...I was pondering what would I be willing to do to get this deal done??? All the talk of Boozer has left me thinking....if people are willing to take on 15 million a year of Boozer, what throw ins will they accept with Ilyasova, who at 7.9 mill, makes a pretty large sum less than Boozer...
    Candidates as I see them:
    -Ekpe Udoh....if the Bucks don't see him in future plans, they may want to create an open roster space soon, and he'd be among the better options (as he could be a backup C/F) on their roster. His contract could be up next season (4.5ish million), and if we don't see him in future plans, we don't have to give him a qualifying offer and can renounce him.

    -Drew Gooden....Just as long as Boozer/Bargs contracts...making 6.7ish million per season expiring in 2015. He's a piece of crap that can't be amnestied....but to put things in perspective, adding his contract to Ilyasova still commits less money than going after Boozer (roughly 14.5 million against 15+) over the next 2+ seasons. I want Ilyasova and I'm still not sure I'd do this. I'd say if they took Kleiza it'd help, but the Raps can just amnesty Kleiza if that's what it comes to, though I suppose if they'd take him now, it couldn't hurt. Will Gooden be able to even provide any help even as a backup C/F or end up being the most overpaid 6th big in the NBA since Yogi Stewart graced Toronto with his presence?

    -Udrih, Dalembert...only because of expiring contracts. Both could be stopgap depth players. I really don't want Dalembert. Don't like players that bring a fresh bag of crazy to every situation they touch. Udrih would be fine, but I feel like they'll try to use him in a better deal or let him expire. These are obvious players they could probably move, but I doubt either ends up doing so in a Bargs trade.

    So if the worst thing we can take is Gooden, would you??? Hard to say I would, but I can't say I wouldn't.
    I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.
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  16. #8636
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.
    Agreed. With Ilyasova coming in AS the prospect big, veteran pieces - especially guys like Gooden who is capable of playing on the inside - would better suit us.

  17. #8637
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.
    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Agreed. With Ilyasova coming in AS the prospect big, veteran pieces - especially guys like Gooden who is capable of playing on the inside - would better suit us.
    Ok, I just wanted to check if I was going a bit crazy. I honestly don't know what Gooden has left. Has he been injured this year? What the heck happened? He was somewhere between serviceable and solid, even last year....

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Ok, I just wanted to check if I was going a bit crazy. I honestly don't know what Gooden has left. Has he been injured this year? What the heck happened? He was somewhere between serviceable and solid, even last year....
    *Especially last year. That guy was putting up some scary numbers. Anyways, I think it's because Milwaukee has started to try developing their younger guys. Ilyasova, Udoh, Henson, etc.

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    Default Not convinced with Boozer

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Ilyasova is my preferred trade acquisition as well but as mentioned in previous reply, if Boozer only option, I'd take it. Playoffs for this season seem realistic given Raps are 17-13 in previous 30 games (with 3 blown 20-point leads) and 19-10 over final 29 gets them 40 wins.
    I prefer 2 big men over Boozer. First is Emeka Okafor. Defensively, I think that he rebounds and blocks well for a centre. He's earning 13.4 million and 2 years left. Also, this allows Amir to continue at the 4. There's no way we can roll with JV if the team is serious about the playoff push. My next choice would be Kris Humphries at 12Mil with 2 years left. He's a big body that rebounds. His defense is still better than Boozers. My concern with Boozer besides money is that he'll also need touches. Both Okafor and Humps won't need it as much. Ilyasova is a pipe dream but if Dalembert and Ilyasova is offered for Bargs, I'd jump on that ASAP!
    ďThe saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.Ē - Martin Luther King

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I prefer 2 big men over Boozer. First is Emeka Okafor. Defensively, I think that he rebounds and blocks well for a centre. He's earning 13.4 million and 2 years left. Also, this allows Amir to continue at the 4. There's no way we can roll with JV if the team is serious about the playoff push. My next choice would be Kris Humphries at 12Mil with 2 years left. He's a big body that rebounds. His defense is still better than Boozers. My concern with Boozer besides money is that he'll also need touches. Both Okafor and Humps won't need it as much. Ilyasova is a pipe dream but if Dalembert and Ilyasova is offered for Bargs, I'd jump on that ASAP!
    To your point about Boozer needing touches, that's EXACTLY what this team needs. Any low post presence... Defensively, we seemed to have improved significantly since the deal made, and we are starting to get exposed on the inside offensively, with no true paint scorer. All are coming from the perimeter. Humphries AND Okafor don't address any of our current issues.

    Speaking about JV, JV is already battle tested, if things aren't going right, I actually feel fairly confident in rolling Gray out there, because he fits better in a half-court situation at this point (playoffs is a MUCH slower, half-court played game), and because JV still hasn't developed his low post game being a rookie.

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