View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8921
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    who even cares anymore
    MY Point exactly!

  2. #8922
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    I wasn't a member at the time, but I used to browse these forums. Didn't matt (mod at the time) and tim w. have a huge falling out, with tim w swearing he'd never post here again?

  3. #8923
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    Since this thread has turned into an homage to Tim W and Multipaul, here's a great quote from Tim's blog. Really hits the nail on the head......

    http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...uire-rudy-gay/

    IF Colangelo’s plan was to have a trio of Rudy Gay, Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan as the teams leading scorers, then he’s a worse judge of talent and team builder than I thought. All three can score, there’s no doubt about it. But all three are inefficient scorers who can disappear for long stretches at a time. On top of that, they’re all below average rebounders, especially for their size and athleticism. And not one of them are going to impress anyone with their defense. Basically, they’re one dimensional players who aren’t all that good at their one dimension.

  4. #8924
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I wasn't a member at the time, but I used to browse these forums. Didn't matt (mod at the time) and tim w. have a huge falling out, with tim w swearing he'd never post here again?
    i disappeared from the board for awhile during that period... and when i came back, i heard something similar... not specifically Matt, but that Tim got into it with people too heavy handedly and took his ball and went home instead of playing nice

  5. #8925
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Which is as valuable an insight as the raps being 0-3 when Rudy gets 4 steals, or 0-2 when he gets 9 or more rebounds.
    Welcome the new multipaul!
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  6. #8926
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Welcome the new multipaul!
    He's more of a multipaul/Tim W. hybrid (i.e loves Bargnani, but refuses to accept anyone's opinion if it differs from his own).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #8927
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Since this thread has turned into an homage to Tim W and Multipaul, here's a great quote from Tim's blog. Really hits the nail on the head......

    http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...uire-rudy-gay/

    IF Colangeloís plan was to have a trio of Rudy Gay, Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan as the teams leading scorers, then heís a worse judge of talent and team builder than I thought. All three can score, thereís no doubt about it. But all three are inefficient scorers who can disappear for long stretches at a time. On top of that, theyíre all below average rebounders, especially for their size and athleticism. And not one of them are going to impress anyone with their defense. Basically, theyíre one dimensional players who arenít all that good at their one dimension.
    I wouldn't put Gay on that list because he's actually a pretty good rebounder. And defensively he's not that bad. He's not the greatest defensive player in the world but he uses his length well and he always seems to have 3-4 steals a game. As for his scoring, he's not the greatest shooter in the world, but when the game is on the line he makes shots. And he's one of those guys that is capable of taking over a game.

    I agree w/ you about DeRozan and Bargnani though. Two of the most inefficient players in the game. If they're not scoring they're basically useless. You said it perfectly. One dimensional player who aren't all that good with their one dimension.
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  8. #8928
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't put Gay on that list because he's actually a pretty good rebounder. And defensively he's not that bad. He's not the greatest defensive player in the world but he uses his length well and he always seems to have 3-4 steals a game. As for his scoring, he's not the greatest shooter in the world, but when the game is on the line he makes shots. And he's one of those guys that is capable of taking over a game.

    I agree w/ you about DeRozan and Bargnani though. Two of the most inefficient players in the game. If they're not scoring they're basically useless. You said it perfectly. One dimensional player who aren't all that good with their one dimension.
    Agreed. If Bargnani could be replaced with a stud PF who plays a more traditional low-post game and DeRozan could be replaced with a lockdown perimeter defender who isn't a ball-dominant player and can hit an open 3pt shot, the team's starting lineup would have much better balance, increased scoring efficiency and improved defense (assuming Lowry, Gay and Valanciunas are the other starters). The PF would need to be acquired via trade/S&T (for Bargnani and/or DeRozan), but Fields could potentially be an in-house solution for the SG spot.

  9. #8929
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    He's more of a multipaul/Tim W. hybrid (i.e loves Bargnani, but refuses to accept anyone's opinion if it differs from his own).
    all he needs to do now is refer to some obscure metrics, provide a link to back up his point, but when you click on the link you spend hours scouring it for anything somewhat relevant and you just can't find it, and then tell you that you're wrong for having an opinion and leave the board forever

    i dub this frankenstein monster "MultiTim"

  10. #8930
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    I'll say this; whether or not you agree with others' opinions, I love the fact that so many do care about this team! Even bothering with these posts proves that! Go Raps (next year, of course!)

  11. #8931
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    all he needs to do now is refer to some obscure metrics, provide a link to back up his point, but when you click on the link you spend hours scouring it for anything somewhat relevant and you just can't find it, and then tell you that you're wrong for having an opinion and leave the board forever

    i dub this frankenstein monster "MultiTim"
    haha I'm always impressed when people link to a previous post of theirs that states essentially the same thing, as support for their current post, especially when they refer to both of their posts as "fact" instead of "opinion"! Now that's a poster who makes it difficult to engage in constructive conversation/debate...

  12. #8932
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    haha I'm always impressed when people link to a previous post of theirs that states essentially the same thing, as support for their current post, especially when they refer to both of their posts as "fact" instead of "opinion"! Now that's a poster who makes it difficult to engage in constructive conversation/debate...
    Multipaul was brilliant for the linking to "Wayne Winston's Mathletics"... i cant tell you how much time i spent following up on that crap, with a constant "WTF" going on in my head... it took awhile to figure out that it was a diversionary tactic so you wouldn't notice that his arguments had no validity, he was just arguing for the sake of arguing

  13. #8933
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I wasn't a member at the time, but I used to browse these forums. Didn't matt (mod at the time) and tim w. have a huge falling out, with tim w swearing he'd never post here again?
    Yes, we had an exchange that unfortunately became quite petty on my end.

    I wouldn't call it a falling out and I don't recall Tim every swearing never to post here again.

    Obviously it was enough to piss him off enough to not come back.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Mar 5th, 2013 at 05:13 PM.
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  14. #8934
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Welcome the new multipaul!
    My comment was no defense of Bargnani, but a direct comment/opinion toward your 0-9 comment as being meaningless anecdotal information to support your narrative. I provided other examples to illustrate why I feel this way. The best you've got is to call me names? Sorry I thought you could handle a reasonable challenge to your comment.

  15. #8935
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    He's more of a multipaul/Tim W. hybrid (i.e loves Bargnani, but refuses to accept anyone's opinion if it differs from his own).
    You on the other hand, twisting the truth or re-inventing history is your shtick.

  16. #8936
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    all he needs to do now is refer to some obscure metrics, provide a link to back up his point, but when you click on the link you spend hours scouring it for anything somewhat relevant and you just can't find it, and then tell you that you're wrong for having an opinion and leave the board forever

    i dub this frankenstein monster "MultiTim"
    And the mob expands, lol. You got me wrong on advanced metrics though. I'm not much of a stat guy at all.

    Usually I see you present fairly well reasoned opinions and insight, so if you can break yourself away from the mob for a bit, please tell me how the "0-9 when he scores......." is anything more than the same kind anecdotal information as Raps are 0-3 when Rudy has 4 steals, and have a better record when he has less. I see it as meaningless drivel to support a narrative, but would welcome enlightenment.

  17. #8937
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    My comment was no defense of Bargnani, but a direct comment/opinion toward your 0-9 comment as being meaningless anecdotal information to support your narrative. I provided other examples to illustrate why I feel this way. The best you've got is to call me names? Sorry I thought you could handle a reasonable challenge to your comment.
    Meaningless and anecdotal as it may be in your opinion, we are talking about a guy who has played just 33 games this season.

    In games he has scored 20 or more the Raptors are 0-8.

    In games he has not played at all, the Raptors are 14-13.

    In games he has started the Raptors are 4-23.

    In games he has played but not started the Raptors are 5-5.


    That is the great things about numbers, basketball, and forums, people can and will draw their own conclusions - and quite often be extremely different. Personally, I see those numbers and feel they are quite telling and relevant. I respect anyone who feels differently I just think they are wrong.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  18. #8938
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I wasn't a member at the time, but I used to browse these forums. Didn't matt (mod at the time) and tim w. have a huge falling out, with tim w swearing he'd never post here again?
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Yes, we had an exchange that unfortunately became quite petty on my end.

    I wouldn't call it a falling out and I don't recall Tim every swearing never to post here again.

    Obviously it was enough to piss him off enough to not come back.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You are correct.

    Tim and I had many head to heads. All my arguments were based on hope and potential that never came to be. All his arguments were based on realities that persisted.

    On this topic, I bow to Tim..... if he is out there.
    Actually thinking about this a bit more. I would probably not bow to Tim. I would concede the outcome he argued was correct without a doubt though.

    Bargnani did for a very brief moment show what I - and many other "fanboys" - had hoped for. What I never saw prior to this season - maybe Tim and many other "haters" did - was the total lack of effort. Maybe it was there all along and I was blinded with optimism and hope.... jeepers creepers I hope I was not that delusional but I most likely was minus those 18 games last season.

    The bottom line was anyone arguing for Bargnani and the positive impact he could have on Toronto never accounted for him being a zombie.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #8939
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Meaningless and anecdotal as it may be in your opinion, we are talking about a guy who has played just 33 games this season.

    In games he has scored 20 or more the Raptors are 0-8.

    In games he has not played at all, the Raptors are 14-13.

    In games he has started the Raptors are 4-23.

    In games he has played but not started the Raptors are 5-5.


    That is the great things about numbers, basketball, and forums, people can and will draw their own conclusions - and quite often be extremely different. Personally, I see those numbers and feel they are quite telling and relevant. I respect anyone who feels differently I just think they are wrong.
    So, let's compare them to the historical numbers:

    Year Record 20+ games Winning percentage Record 20- games Winning percentage
    2006/2007 3-1 75% 32-29 52%
    2007/2008 5-6 45% 33-34 49%
    2008/2009 12-14 46% 18-33 35%
    2009/2010 17-10 63% 22-31 42%
    2010/2011 16-25 39% 3-22 12%
    2011/2012 9-6 60% 4-12 25%
    2012/2013 0-9 0% 9-15 38%
    Career 62-71 47% 121-176 41%

    Used the stats from basketball-reference.com.

  20. #8940
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Actually thinking about this a bit more. I would probably not bow to Tim. I would concede the outcome he argued was correct without a doubt though.

    Bargnani did for a very brief moment show what I - and many other "fanboys" - had hoped for. What I never saw prior to this season - maybe Tim and many other "haters" did - was the total lack of effort. Maybe it was there all along and I was blinded with optimism and hope.... jeepers creepers I hope I was not that delusional but I most likely was minus those 18 games last season.

    The bottom line was anyone arguing for Bargnani and the positive impact he could have on Toronto never accounted for him being a zombie.
    About Tim: though many now agree with his opinion (as did many at the time) this doesn't mean he was somehow correct in hindsight; he was using the stats selectively to his advantage all the time (who doesn't though) and I don't think I've ever seen him concede that he was wrong on something, even if some of his points had been rebutted with strong arguments and/or facts.

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