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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not sure I agree.

    D'Antoni might have said it best:



    The last five games he is averaging 18 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists on 59% shooting.

    I think health was a big factor as well. Appears his foot is finally healthy.
    He's certainly been playing better since his return, but it's a pretty short time frame. I can't look past an entire season, playoffs from last season and periods prior to that where he didn't play up to standards, because of the last 6 games, but we'll know for sure once the playoffs get here.

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    • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
      He's certainly been playing better since his return, but it's a pretty short time frame. I can't look past an entire season, playoffs from last season and periods prior to that where he didn't play up to standards, because of the last 6 games, but we'll know for sure once the playoffs get here.
      But if playoffs are part of anyone's gauging, Boozer has also somehow become totally useless in the playoffs the last couple of seasons. Just alarmingly so because he used to be a solid playoff performer. I don't think either one can be expected to play the #2 role like they used to for a whole season and playoffs.

      OH, another thing I like about the difference in deal lengths: I really don't think this team will need someone like Boozer demanding minutes and touches by JV's 3rd season. I like the idea of getting that roster space back after just one season, even if it means just using stopgaps to maintain capspace for 2015. Then you can re-mould the bigs spots around JV and Amir again to allow them, but mainly JV, to thrive.

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      • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
        He's certainly been playing better since his return, but it's a pretty short time frame. I can't look past an entire season, playoffs from last season and periods prior to that where he didn't play up to standards, because of the last 6 games, but we'll know for sure once the playoffs get here.
        That is true.

        13 games is the minimum for determining.

        *damn*

        Hopefully one day that will be funny for Raptor fans. Right now it still hurts.

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        • Primer wrote: View Post
          #1 reason for Boozer over Gasol is who would need to be sent out to acquire each.

          To acquire Boozer will only take Bargs, and we might even be able to get them to send us a pick too.

          To acquire Gasol, we'd have to send Bargs + DD (or Ross), which is way too much for a one year rental of a guy coming off an injury plagued season.

          #2 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
          The current Raps team with either guy at PF is probably going to result in roughly the same amount of wins, playoff position, and playoff exit time. Gasol may equal 1-4 more wins, if he stays healthy all year, than Boozer would. His extra value isn't enough to overcome the fact we'd have to include DD or Ross.

          #3 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
          Boozer's contract lines up with our huge cap clear in 2015. If we're being realistic, that is when the Raps will finally have cap space. There is no way in hell they're moving Gay for a huge 1 year contract similar to Gasol's to free up the cap space a year earlier, so once again another Gasol advantage goes by the wayside. We'd still have no cap room in 2014 as long as Gay is still here, and if you're being realistic then you know there's a 99.999% chance he will be. Even if we got a new GM, he's not going to make his first move shipping out our best player for pennies on the $.

          #4 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
          It's a culmination of the above points. We get a playoff team for 2 seasons (5-8 seed), then we have a huge cap clear in 2015 when Jonas, Ross, and DD are the only guys under contract and ready to take over. We could spend to bring in whatever big FA are available, and hopefully have a more championship caliber squad in 2015.

          Gasol is the better player, but his contract, what it would take to get him, and the difference in wins vs Boozer instead is not enough to pick Gasol over Boozer.
          I like your post - good points.

          The bold is one area I would question. Danny Ferry's first move in Atlanta was sending out the best player for pennies on the dollar - an older and more expensive player at that.

          However, I think we can safely say Colangelo's LAST move will not be sending out Gay for pennies on the dollar.

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          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            Oh, and also, my general opinion is that capspace is overrated. Most often you overpay for a player and then just pray that they will be close to value. So I'm always in favor of moving bad contracts for better ones. Bargs' contract is worse than Gasol's because of length and untradeability of player. Boozer's contract is worse than Gasol's as well. I am for moves that remove bad contracts as fast as possible, regardless of implications on signings.

            I firmly believe the 2 easiest ways to acquire high-calibre talent is through smart drafting and trading. So IMO, I don't care about 2015 capspace...I just want to cut the deadweight (and associated money) ASAP. Cutting pay isn't just about capspace, but about getting farther from the luxury tax, which also gives ownership more comfort when absorbing more money again. In that sense, Gasol is also a better move, if other deals the team likes become available. I know I shouldn't care about money, but the owners clearly do.
            In the new CBA, cap space should be much more beneficial in trades. Big reason why DeRozan's extension pissed me off so much.

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            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              In the new CBA, cap space should be much more beneficial in trades. Big reason why DeRozan's extension pissed me off so much.
              Cap space is always beneficial in trades, but what is even more beneficial is having quality assets to trade.

              Right now, the Raptors have 4 "assets" in my view: Amir, Demar, Ross, Lowry.....JV is untouchable. These guys are guys that teams will WANT for something they bring to the game. In order to get an upgrade in talent somewhere, it will cost one or two of these guys to start building any package.

              I don't know what to call Bargnani...I suppose he's an "asset" if he can bring back a Boozer or Gasol, but what is he if he brings Spencer Hawes and filler?

              Then you just have filler....Fields being both filler and an awful contract. No one on the rest of the roster, Gay included, is someone you can use to get a talent upgrade via trade.

              Using money alone, or money and picks, is not likely to bring back the kind of player this team would need to take the next step. I don't think you'll see repeats of what happened iwth the guys going to Miami for basicaly just picks. Teams will be more aggressive and unwilling to let someone walk for basically nothing, becasue the draft is always pretty unceratin. And for instance, I don't think there's a chance in hell Rajon Rondo would ever sign with Toronto as a free agent (lets say unrestricted). Why would he make that choice when there are sure to be other teams offering a player of his calibre equal or better money and chance to win?

              The best opportunity to get him(or that calibre of player) is to do so via a trade before he finishes his contract, because Rondo also probably wouldn't be against playing in Toronto if the team is moving in the right direction. It's just never going to be a first choice in free agency, but it's also a city guys generally like. You'll usually only end up getting guys in the 2nd or 3rd tier as free agents, and overpay them at that. For me, the situation I keep thinking of is Chris Paul going to the Clippers. Does anyone believe in a million years he would choose them, even with Griffin there, if he played out his current contract somewhere else? He'd probably go to Dallas or someplace like that with an established star, solid ownership and management, and a winning history. It is unsure if Toronto could offer a star free agent any of those things in 2015, as Gay is a borderline star at best (whose future contract has to be cheaper for keeping him to make sense), and JV may not be enough on his own to attract a guy here.

              Now, as far using the money during the season as part of a trade, well, that's clearly not the situation being talked about unless they end up striking out completely in 2015 free agency, which is entirely possible if this team stays mediocre and JV stays the only worthwhile building block. To me, it all keeps coming back to this team having to pull off one more significant trade before 2015 if they want to keep moving in the right direction, otherwise it's basically rebuilding again, this time hoping JV can stay patient for a couple of bad years as he's hitting his prime. I mean, yes, the team could have signficant cap space, but if they're losing (or barely winning) and JV's the only keeper, it's not going to be an attractive situation. JV would have to look like an MVP type player by then for there to be any chance to attract guys....and then the issue becomes how do you get guys via trade? Will Demar's contract seem better/worse at that point? Will Ross blossom or fade? Lowry could be long gone by then.

              *I feel like I've helped sidetrack the discussion. Sorry. Wasn't this supposed to be just a preference? Contracts/attainability aside, I'd choose Gasol every time. Accounting for attainability, I'd go with Boozer, unless for some reason LA wants Fields...I would not give up Demar/Ross for anything other than a long-term piece
              Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11, 2013, 03:21 PM.

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              • Gasol. Shorter contract, better player, and I like the idea of him mentoring JV for a season before his contract runs out.

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                • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  Cap space is always beneficial in trades, but what is even more beneficial is having quality assets to trade.

                  Right now, the Raptors have 4 "assets" in my view: Amir, Demar, Ross, Lowry.....JV is untouchable. These guys are guys that teams will WANT for something they bring to the game. In order to get an upgrade in talent somewhere, it will cost one or two of these guys to start building any package.

                  I don't know what to call Bargnani...I suppose he's an "asset" if he can bring back a Boozer or Gasol, but what is he if he brings Spencer Hawes and filler?

                  Then you just have filler....Fields being both filler and an awful contract. No one on the rest of the roster, Gay included, is someone you can use to get a talent upgrade via trade.

                  Using money alone, or money and picks, is not likely to bring back the kind of player this team would need to take the next step. I don't think you'll see repeats of what happened iwth the guys going to Miami for basicaly just picks. Teams will be more aggressive and unwilling to let someone walk for basically nothing, becasue the draft is always pretty unceratin. And for instance, I don't think there's a chance in hell Rajon Rondo would ever sign with Toronto as a free agent (lets say unrestricted). Why would he make that choice when there are sure to be other teams offering a player of his calibre equal or better money and chance to win?

                  The best opportunity to get him(or that calibre of player) is to do so via a trade before he finishes his contract, because Rondo also probably wouldn't be against playing in Toronto if the team is moving in the right direction. It's just never going to be a first choice in free agency, but it's also a city guys generally like. You'll usually only end up getting guys in the 2nd or 3rd tier as free agents, and overpay them at that. For me, the situation I keep thinking of is Chris Paul going to the Clippers. Does anyone believe in a million years he would choose them, even with Griffin there, if he played out his current contract somewhere else? He'd probably go to Dallas or someplace like that with an established star, solid ownership and management, and a winning history. It is unsure if Toronto could offer a star free agent any of those things in 2015, as Gay is a borderline star at best (whose future contract has to be cheaper for keeping him to make sense), and JV may not be enough on his own to attract a guy here.

                  Now, as far using the money during the season as part of a trade, well, that's clearly not the situation being talked about unless they end up striking out completely in 2015 free agency, which is entirely possible if this team stays mediocre and JV stays the only worthwhile building block. To me, it all keeps coming back to this team having to pull off one more significant trade before 2015 if they want to keep moving in the right direction, otherwise it's basically rebuilding again, this time hoping JV can stay patient for a couple of bad years as he's hitting his prime. I mean, yes, the team could have signficant cap space, but if they're losing (or barely winning) and JV's the only keeper, it's not going to be an attractive situation. JV would have to look like an MVP type player by then for there to be any chance to attract guys....and then the issue becomes how do you get guys via trade? Will Demar's contract seem better/worse at that point? Will Ross blossom or fade? Lowry could be long gone by then.

                  *I feel like I've helped sidetrack the discussion. Sorry. Wasn't this supposed to be just a preference? Contracts/attainability aside, I'd choose Gasol every time. Accounting for attainability, I'd go with Boozer, unless for some reason LA wants Fields...I would not give up Demar/Ross for anything other than a long-term piece
                  Of course. My point is with Luxury taxes becoming exponentially more penalizing, taking salary from teams is going to become extremely enticing in a trade partner.

                  Example, assuming Howard resigns in LA next year for max, cutting $8M from the Lakers is going to save between $34-38M in salary and tax.

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                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Of course. My point is with Luxury taxes becoming exponentially more penalizing, taking salary from teams is going to become extremely enticing in a trade partner.

                    Example, assuming Howard resigns in LA next year for max, cutting $8M from the Lakers is going to save between $34-38M in salary and tax.
                    Yes, in that sense, I totally agree. And that's one of the reasons I think there's even any chance of getting Gasol. I'm sure LA will want to cut at least a bit of payroll in any deal.

                    Toronto getting Gasol may cloud things beyond next season, but the future of the team is pretty cloudy in general. I see no reason why getting him would sacrifice flexibilty after his contract is over. A team doesn't have to make another long-term investment immediately after one is loosed.
                    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11, 2013, 03:53 PM.

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                    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      Yes, in that sense, I totally agree. And that's one of the reasons I think there's even any chance of getting Gasol. I'm sure LA will want to cut at least a bit of payroll in any deal.

                      Toronto getting Gasol may cloud things beyond next season, but the future of the team is pretty cloudy in general. I see no reason why getting him would sacrifice flexibilty after his contract is over. A team doesn't have to make another long-term investment immediately after one is loosed.
                      I don't see an extra year as being a long term investment but whatever.

                      Any trade with LA is going to need a third team unless LA is not making a trade looking for salary relief purposes.

                      I put up a trade with Minnesota being a third team with Lakers & Raptors. Also Bargnani for Boozer is straightforward. Whatever deal Toronto can get a first round pick from is what I would pursue. I think sending DeRozan out in ANY deal needs a first round draft pick coming back.

                      Lots of negativity around this draft but solid players come from every draft.

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                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        I like your post - good points.

                        The bold is one area I would question. Danny Ferry's first move in Atlanta was sending out the best player for pennies on the dollar - an older and more expensive player at that.

                        However, I think we can safely say Colangelo's LAST move will not be sending out Gay for pennies on the dollar.
                        Gay for Gasol.

                        Toronto gets an expiring contract and a great locker room presence/mentor for Valanciunas; LA gets a younger, talented wing player who still has some merit on a team that already has its two alpha dogs in Howard and Kobe and is looking to win a championship ASAP. You can still do whatever you want with Bargnani - trade for picks, amnesty, whatever you like. You can even trade him for Boozer if you want, though I wouldn't.
                        Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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                        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          I don't see an extra year as being a long term investment but whatever.

                          Any trade with LA is going to need a third team unless LA is not making a trade looking for salary relief purposes.

                          I put up a trade with Minnesota being a third team with Lakers & Raptors. Also Bargnani for Boozer is straightforward. Whatever deal Toronto can get a first round pick from is what I would pursue. I think sending DeRozan out in ANY deal needs a first round draft pick coming back.

                          Lots of negativity around this draft but solid players come from every draft.
                          That part wasn't really directed at you. Just that someone had suggested that getting Boozer was better for flexibility because of the 2015 capspace. I'm arguing that it makes no real difference. Getting Gasol does not sacrifice the chance to add a 2015 free agent if that is the route the team decides to take.

                          On the second bold, it'd be nice to get the draft pick out of Chicago. I mean, I still doubt a Gasol deal happening, because I just don't see how the Raptors send filler that they can part with in such a deal. That said, I'm all for adding young pieces to a team that needs a chance to not just get talent, but stockpile assets a bit, so it'd be great if more than just Boozer is on the table.

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                          • Good chance to checkout 2 potential raptors tonight. Boozer against the hot Knicks. Carl Landry vs OKC later.
                            @Chr1st1anL

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                            • Kryptonate just scored 35 points on the Knicks.

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                              • Boozer did not look good. He's a pretty terrible finisher around the basket. I was thinking about this Gasol - Boozer situation & I realized what I like about Gasol that Boozer does not provide.

                                Gasol is a much better post presence than Boozer & although "soft", he's a better finisher inside than Boozer. He's a very skilled big man who can rebound AND pass the ball. I remember watching the Lakers with Gasol and Bynum during the championship runs & I would love for the Raptors to have two 7 footers crashing the boards in Gasol & Valanciunas -- both are good finishers around the basket.

                                Again, with regards to passing. This is the main advantage & my primary motivation in wanting Gasol. Imagine -- Lowry high screen and roll with Valanciunas. JV runs down the middle, Gasol flashes high. Gasol has the ability to make high - low passes in traffic. JV has his arms way high, receives the pass from Gasol & finish. I'm remembering the Laker days when they ran the big to big high low -- sort of like a grounded alley oop, which they have shied away from recently partly because Dwight is not that long that when he puts his arms up, he's basically dunking. Bynum had the length & he kept his hands up, got the ball and finished.

                                I can see a lot of that happening with the Raptors should they pursue Gasol. It will benefit Jonas a lot having a 7 footer who is also a facilitator on offense. Add in the fact that Gasol has enough size to man the 5 spot & we rid ourselves of the Aaron Gray epidemic.

                                With Quincy Acy's development, I feel that we would need another big who is more suited at the 5 spot yet can be plugged into the 4 spot along with Jonas. Acy and Amir are good defenders for the 4 spot because they are mobile enough to hedge, help and recover. I can't even undermine Acy's development -- because of Quincy Acy, we have gone away from the small ball that caused us many ball games. In Acy, we have a serviceable big off the bench who has endless motor, jump shot & lateral quickness to react to pick and roll situations.

                                I feel that Boozer - at 6'9" and not so mobile, will make our front court rather small. So if I had to choose between the 2, I'd take Gasol because he has enough size for the 5 but also gives you a twin tower option along with Valanciunas.
                                “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

                                -- Charles Barkley

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