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  • I read this article a few weeks ago. It's an incredibly flawed argument and not even worth discussing, in my opinion.
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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      I read this article a few weeks ago. It's an incredibly flawed argument and not even worth discussing, in my opinion.
      Is it incredibly flawed because you don't agree with it, or do you have some sort of statistical facts to back your opinion up?

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      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
        I read this article a few weeks ago. It's an incredibly flawed argument and not even worth discussing, in my opinion.
        Sure. But what about the stats? I may be wrong but I believe you have said that "bargs being a good on the ball defender is one of the biggest bargnani myths out there" or something to that effect. As someone who believes that you need stats to back up your argument I would have thought that you'd have a little more sophisticated of a rebuttal than that. Poor form.
        Last edited by ezz_bee; Sat Jul 23, 2011, 04:12 PM.
        "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

        "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

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        • Alright, look at his Defensive Rating (DRTG). It proves that he drags the team down with his poor decision-making and the fact that he is constantly out of position. He does not guard the rim, does not grab defensive boards, and doesn't help his teammates. He's a step behind the play mentally. When the ball is cycled around to his man, let's grant the point that he can play good one-on-one defense. So what? There are 9 guys out there and complex plays being run on both sides. And he can't follow it. As his playing time has increased, his DRTG and the overall team DRTG of the Raptors have both fallen.

          Big men generally have a better DRTG than their team. With Bargnani, it's the opposite. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson both had a DRTG of 110 this season. The Raptors as a team were at 114. Bargnani was at 115. So, while Davis and Johnson were helping the team play better defense, Bargnani was dragging it down with his usual crap. His responsibilities need to decrease, not increase like they did this past season.

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          • No stat can express or adequately represent Bargnani's defensive failings because the biggest impact it has is on his opponent's confidence. When you play the Raps, you know you can go down that lane, make that cut off the ball, go in for that offensive rebound, because it's there and Bargnani simply won't adjust/recognize/whatever the case may be. Those plays energize professional athletes, get them locked in. It also must demoralize the hell out of his teammates, since they can do a good job in their rotations only to have Bargs allow a layup because he had his head turned. There's no stat for that impact. You just have to watch the games to see it.

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            • The author's definition of terrible is..lenient to say least. Teams will still aggressively run 1-5 (or 1-4, because the 7-1, 250+ pound Bargnani isn't a center) ball screens to rape our defense,

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              • Bargs is a bad defender because because centers and power forwards have to be good helpers and he isn't. That's just the way it is. Maybe there is a defensive scheme that we could implement that would hide him or even allow his strengths to shine but the question then becomes whether or not he's a good enough player to base our whole defensive strategy around hiding him. It doesn't look like he'll be traded this off season (Casey's comments + the lockout) so I think that he's going to have another chance to improve and maybe Casey can help with that. If he learns how to help, if he can even figure out how to make the first rotation effectively, he'll be a good enough defender to keep around. If he doesn't, which is more likely IMO, he will drag this franchise down until we either move him to the bench and play him spot minutes or trade him.

                add: I seem to remember Bargs also had a really good defensive rating guarding the pick and roll. Can anyone verify that?
                Last edited by hateslosing; Sat Jul 23, 2011, 09:15 PM.
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                • CT2010 wrote: View Post
                  Is it incredibly flawed because you don't agree with it, or do you have some sort of statistical facts to back your opinion up?
                  It's incredibly flawed because it makes no sense. It's a completely illogical argument. And that's without getting into any statistical analysis.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                  • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                    I came across this article in bleacher report and thought that it would make me laugh. turns out the guy does actually use statistics to make his case. Personally, I've always felt like Bargs was a passable man defender, but not "very good" man defender as this article suggests. The only problem I have with the article is the author doesn't do a good job of putting bargs numbers within the context of other players, so despite looking like good numbers I don't know how they hold up to the numbers that other players are putting up in the same situation(s).

                    View the article in its entirety HERE
                    There is good reason why you were surprised by this article on bleacherreport and it did not make you laugh instantly as should be expected: it isn't a bleacherreport article. You probably clicked on a link there and they wrapped the new website in their own. It is an article on nbaplaybook by Sebastian Pruiti. http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/07/15/nb...ible-defender/.

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                    • Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                      No stat can express or adequately represent Bargnani's defensive failings because the biggest impact it has is on his opponent's confidence. When you play the Raps, you know you can go down that lane, make that cut off the ball, go in for that offensive rebound, because it's there and Bargnani simply won't adjust/recognize/whatever the case may be. Those plays energize professional athletes
                      I think there is a lot of truth to this. I'm sure most of us have played competitively before and know exactly what confidence does to help a player. I'd even take that a step further and argue that his lack of D can hurt other Raptors players by creating a lack of confidence on D.

                      Does anyone remember the article (I think it was from Raptors HQ) about the guys from Golden State telling their teammates to attack the basket because Andrea couldn't stop them? What about the OT game in Milwaukee where the Bucks didn't even remotely hide going at Andrea for every play in OT? A certain Luke Harangody lighting it up for a near 20-10?

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                      • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                        Sure. But what about the stats? I may be wrong but I believe you have said that "bargs being a good on the ball defender is one of the biggest bargnani myths out there" or something to that effect. As someone who believes that you need stats to back up your argument I would have thought that you'd have a little more sophisticated of a rebuttal than that. Poor form.
                        There's nothing wrong with the stats... but rather is the specificity of them, the lack of comparison's and his conclusion.

                        For instance:

                        "In the 205 times he was posted up last season, Bargnani held his opponent to just 182 points (0.888 PPP) on just 46.8% shooting"

                        Ok sounds good, but how does that compare to the league? To other starting C's (or bigs)? This accounts only for when he is specifically posted up, and it also doesn't account for who is doing the posting up. (remember he always got the easier cover).


                        "When faced with isolation situations, Bargnani is in the top 17% of the NBA in terms of Points Per Possession (PPP) allowed, giving up just 0.684 points per possession on 29.7% shooting"

                        ok now we a number that offers a comparison, but how many times did that happen? How often did the team not send help? Again, who is this isolation against.... Ryan Hollins/Brandon Bass/Chuck Hayes/Biendrins?


                        "but he is able to go straight up and use his length to contest shots without fouling (fouled opponents on the block just 7.6% of the time) by going straight up."

                        I'd argue his lack of fouling is an indictment of how bad his defense is. Good/smart defensive players use their fouls. Good hard foul and 2 fts > dunk or lay up in my books.

                        Then the authors conclusion is Bargnani is a terrible help defender, Bargnani is a terrible rebounder (which is a defensive attribute), but he is not a terrible one-on-one defender (and it was only in post situations that the author tried to "prove" it). Therefore Bargnani is not a terrible defender? That Bargnani can be a good or average defender going forward if moved to PF (where he will play less post defense no less).

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                        • This is Bleacher Report... right?

                          .. Should be enough said.

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                          • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            This is Bleacher Report... right?

                            .. Should be enough said.
                            It's not, it's Sebastian Pruiti (and that's quite something else); see my post.

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                            • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              It's not, it's Sebastian Pruiti (and that's quite something else); see my post.
                              Hmmm ... indeed. Good catch. Well then perhaps I re-read it with a less cynical eye.

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                              • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                                Hmmm ... indeed. Good catch. Well then perhaps I re-read it with a less cynical eye.
                                Good idea

                                What I (almost) always miss in these advanced stats posts is some kind of more 'advanced' and weighted factor (if you call it like that in English). You get, as in this case, some opponents ppp thrown at you, but that would be much more interesting to me if the level of competition was incorporated in the stats. That should not be that hard, a matter of taking the opponents normal ppp in those situations and basing the stat on the difference instead of just a basic number. Maybe even factor in the number of shots in a situation taken (e.g. for post play) in relation to their average number of shots taken in those situations. That's still only an indication because there are so many other factors in play in a game (or even a single possession). For instance, if a team plays a lot of help defense on post up situations, e.g. where a guard comes over when the ball is put on the floor, that probably means the player posting up won't be nearly as effective in ppp in those situations. I have no idea how and if they factor those things in in some advanced stats; I guess a lot of it isn't factored in because basketball simply isn't an easy game to put everything in stats.

                                Still, these stats are at least interesting.

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