Everything Bargnani

[Mack North]

I feel the same way about all the losers who come here day after day spreading the same nauseating shit about how he can't play. The dude is who he is, and he's not a grinder/rebounder. Thats's why the league has teams and not 1 on 1 competitions. Get over yourself and get over it. That shit is tired already.

That's absolutely ridiculous! You're telling me we should just accept his laziness? Do you not wanna see all our players get better each season? I guess if he just averages more PPG we should all be happy huh? Gimme a break, he has to get better.

[Marz]

You can look for yourself and make that judgement, but I'd say it happens at a 2:1 ratio, where two #1 picks will become franchise players for every one that doesn't.

Alright let's do that. There's a list over at wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...BA_draft_picks

Looking from the year Shaq was drafted (1992) till Derrick Rose (2008) (since we can't tell with certainty whether Blake Griffin/John Wall are franchise players, though Blake's games so far suggest he's the real deal):

Franchise Players:

• Shaquille O'Neal
• Chris Webber
• Allen Iverson
• Tim Duncan
• Yao Ming**
• LeBron James
• Dwight Howard
• Derrick Rose

**With Yao's injury history, I personally wouldn't have him on the list. But I know lots of people who would put him there.

Good Players/Role Players

• Glenn Robinson
• Elton Brand
• Kenyon Martin
• Andrew Bogut
• Andrea Bargnani
• Greg Oden**

**Same deal here with Oden's injury history.

Below-Average Players/Busts

• Joe Smith
• Michael Olowokandi
• Kwame Brown

That's about a 1:1 ratio. Perhaps more interesting is that the only people with a ring are Shaq and Duncan (and Glenn Robinson if you want to count his 8 mpg in the 2005 spurs championship run).

[Killingjoke]

Nah hes not a bust, that draft class or top10 is pretty horrific. Adam Morrison and Shelden Williams are pure busts. Eszpecially Morrison, guy was cut

[Killingjoke]

He had 1 rebound last night he was tied with Marcus Banks. Thats pathetic

[sleepz]

You can't even ask the question if he is a bust. He's obviously not regardless of what anyone thinks about his deficencies as a player. Andrea can be a very effective scorer when he's in his comfort zones. Expectations are different for everyone but if his role is to score on this team now, I think that he provides that. He'd be even better if the coaches recognized the best positions to put him in for him to be effective.

[JoePanini]

The ball is round and it's fair game once it clanks off the rim. Go get it. No one's hogging anything. You mean to say Reggie wants the boards more than the 7 foot pylon Bargnani.

First it was Bosh "hogging up" the boards, now it's Reggie. Let's stop making excuses for this guy.

No dude, watch the games. Reggie is fighting for every rebound, he won't allow anyone to grab his boards :P

[JoePanini]

I'd put Bargnani third. Rondo first, then Brandon Roy and then Bargs. First, I put Barg ahead of Aldridge because of the impact difference. Aldridge has a lot less impact on games and a lot less pressure than Bargs, although Aldridge is a better rebounder and defender. I also put Bargnani ahead of Rudy Gay because the guy is as talented as Bill Walker but has a max contract.

[BC Boy]

How about reading my comment in this thread? I said I don't "literally" use the term "bust" to it's meaning, its a word I use eveytime Barney plays like crap.
a REAL bust is Kwame Brown, and even then bust is too weak a word to decribe brown, this guy is a waste of time and money. This guy would have been a waste of a draft pick regardless of where he was picked on the draftboard.

Barney isn't Kwame, but he ain't no top pick material either. And we aren't paying big money to get 2 rebounds a night, no I expect him to average at least 8 rebounds a night, so crappy performances like last night is unacceptable, period.

My bad Matt... I did look through the thread but somehow missed your response. Probably because I was looking for a "Bargnani is a Bust" response and didn't see any. When I saw you throw out that he was a bust a few days ago, I totally disagreed but thought that maybe my idea of a bust was off. This thread has been one of the most grounded, sensible discussions concerning Bargnani in a while... so thanks Matt.

[Tim W.]

Too many people treat Bargnani like Tiger Woods treated Elin. Woods had a beautiful wife, family, and career. But because Elin wouldn't get downright dirrty, Tiger went elsewhere and looked at what has happened: wife and family gone with big part of his fortune and career in shambles.

Here we have a C who can do things hardly no other 7-footer in the league can do but has a phobia of doing the dirty work. Yet we don't look at the positives except to ridicule him (he shoots 3's! he drives from the perimeter! he scores in non-traditional ways for a centre!).

Essentially - instead of wishing/wanting/drooling over what the Raptors don't have, be thankful for what the Raptors do have.

Instead of looking at Bargnani's individual totals, lets focus on team totals. If other positional players can be put around him who are better than average rebounders at their positions, then Bargnani's deficiency is neutralized while the Raptors can still exploit his strengths. Also, if a better defensive system is put in play (which it appears has been done) and the Raps have better perimeter defenders (which it appears they do), his weak help defense may not be as much of a concern. Much of the problem with his help defense in the past was it was being needed so much. Perimeter players take care of their own more, Bargnani isn't looking like the chump who can't rotate as often.

Every player has individual strengths and weaknesses. It is the collective group working together to minimize weaknesses while maximizing strengths that ensure team success.

It is quite clear the Raptors are in transition. Let's see how things turn out this season before sending Bargnani packing. We already know he'll never be a top rebounder - time to get over it.

Well, from what I gather, Tiger Woods "looked elsewhere" because he was a sex addict with a host of other problems.

As for Bargnani, it's great that he can do things that other 7 footers can't do. Unfortunately he also doesn't do things that you pretty much need your 7 footer to do if you want to win. That's pretty much the bottom line right there. You can drool over his flashy offensive skills, but if he can't do what you need him to to win, then what does it matter?

[Buddahfan]

Among all NBA players 6'11" or more who have made 100 or more 3FG in their career Bargnani has the fifth best career 3FG%

Top Five in Order-----Draft Slot
----------------------------------------
1. Channing Frye----Rd #1----#8
2. Troy Murphy------Rd #1---#14
3. Dirk---------------Rd #1----#9
4. Mehmet Okur-----Rd #2----#9---37th overall
5. Bargnani----------Rd #1-----#1

Among that group he ranks (career rankings)

Total Rebounding Percentage - 5th
Assist Percentage - 5th
PER - 5th
Offensive Rating - 5th
Defensive Rating - 5th
Win Shares - 5th
WS/48 - 5th
Steals Per Game - 5th
Blocks Per Game - 1st

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=fg3

[Holy Cow Batman]

Too many people treat Bargnani like Tiger Woods treated Elin. Woods had a beautiful wife, family, and career. But because Elin wouldn't get downright dirrty, Tiger went elsewhere and looked at what has happened: wife and family gone with big part of his fortune and career in shambles.

Here we have a C who can do things hardly no other 7-footer in the league can do but has a phobia of doing the dirty work. Yet we don't look at the positives except to ridicule him (he shoots 3's! he drives from the perimeter! he scores in non-traditional ways for a centre!).

Essentially - instead of wishing/wanting/drooling over what the Raptors don't have, be thankful for what the Raptors do have.

Instead of looking at Bargnani's individual totals, lets focus on team totals. If other positional players can be put around him who are better than average rebounders at their positions, then Bargnani's deficiency is neutralized while the Raptors can still exploit his strengths. Also, if a better defensive system is put in play (which it appears has been done) and the Raps have better perimeter defenders (which it appears they do), his weak help defense may not be as much of a concern. Much of the problem with his help defense in the past was it was being needed so much. Perimeter players take care of their own more, Bargnani isn't looking like the chump who can't rotate as often.

Every player has individual strengths and weaknesses. It is the collective group working together to minimize weaknesses while maximizing strengths that ensure team success.

It is quite clear the Raptors are in transition. Let's see how things turn out this season before sending Bargnani packing. We already know he'll never be a top rebounder - time to get over it.

Very well said Matt...
I think a bust is less to do with the players actual abilities than what the management thought he could do... We tend to place blame on the player when it is actually management fault for selecting that play higher than he should have been selected.

[mcHAPPY]

Well, from what I gather, Tiger Woods "looked elsewhere" because he was a sex addict with a host of other problems.

As for Bargnani, it's great that he can do things that other 7 footers can't do. Unfortunately he also doesn't do things that you pretty much need your 7 footer to do if you want to win. That's pretty much the bottom line right there. You can drool over his flashy offensive skills, but if he can't do what you need him to to win, then what does it matter?

Of course, Tiger had an addiction. It is not his fault - sarcasm very much intended.

The message of the post obviously did not get through to you. At no point am I drooling over his 'flashy' offensive skills. I'm saying he is non-traditional. Who says you need a 7-footer to do certain things to win? What if you re-read the post and focus on the part where pieces are placed around to compliment Bargnani rather than exploit his weaknesses.

It was said the Bulls led by Jordan would never win because they did not have a dominant big man. There was no way the Lakers were suppose to lose to the Pistons with their 6'9" C in Ben Wallace, their 6'11" 3 point shooting PF/C in Rasheed Wallace, and no player who averaged more than 18 PPG.

'If he can't do what you need him to to win'..... then you do what the Bulls and Pistons did and find other pieces that pick up the slack on your main guy or core weaknesses and create a solid team.

Bargnani needs to be surrounded by players who are above average rebounders for their positions and great perimeter defenders.

It is tiring to see the same threads over and over again on what Bargnani can't do. He'll never be a great rebounder or help side defender - so put players around him who are and who can guard their own.

The Raptors are a team in transition who just spent 5 years trying to create a winner around Bosh who was paid max money for the last 3. Surely we can give BC, Bargnani (who makes 60% the money as Bosh with the Raptors) and co. more than a pre-season and 2 regular season games.

[Tim W.]

Of course, Tiger had an addiction. It is not his fault - sarcasm very much intended.

The message of the post obviously did not get through to you. At no point am I drooling over his 'flashy' offensive skills. I'm saying he is non-traditional. Who says you need a 7-footer to do certain things to win? What if you re-read the post and focus on the part where pieces are placed around to compliment Bargnani rather than exploit his weaknesses.

It was said the Bulls led by Jordan would never win because they did not have a dominant big man. There was no way the Lakers were suppose to lose to the Pistons with their 6'9" C in Ben Wallace, their 6'11" 3 point shooting PF/C in Rasheed Wallace, and no player who averaged more than 18 PPG.

'If he can't do what you need him to to win'..... then you do what the Bulls and Pistons did and find other pieces that pick up the slack on your main guy or core weaknesses and create a solid team.

Bargnani needs to be surrounded by players who are above average rebounders for their positions and great perimeter defenders.

It is tiring to see the same threads over and over again on what Bargnani can't do. He'll never be a great rebounder or help side defender - so put players around him who are and who can guard their own.

The Raptors are a team in transition who just spent 5 years trying to create a winner around Bosh who was paid max money for the last 3. Surely we can give BC, Bargnani (who makes 60% the money as Bosh with the Raptors) and co. more than a pre-season and 2 regular season games.

I wasn't saying it wasn't Tiger's fault for what he did, but my point was it wasn't really a good comparison.

Who says you need a 7 footer to do certain things to win? History. A lot of it. All of it, actually.

And if Bargnani were an unearthly talent I could see completely building around him. But he's not. You don't build around decent players. The Raptors tried to build around a very good, non-traditional big man for years and it didn't work. And he was a perennial All-Star.

A better comparison? Bargnani is a really hot girl with absolutely no personality. She's great to look at but after a while, you realize there is absolutely no future in the relationship.

[pesterm1]

Of course, Tiger had an addiction. It is not his fault - sarcasm very much intended.

The message of the post obviously did not get through to you. At no point am I drooling over his 'flashy' offensive skills. I'm saying he is non-traditional. Who says you need a 7-footer to do certain things to win? What if you re-read the post and focus on the part where pieces are placed around to compliment Bargnani rather than exploit his weaknesses.

It was said the Bulls led by Jordan would never win because they did not have a dominant big man. There was no way the Lakers were suppose to lose to the Pistons with their 6'9" C in Ben Wallace, their 6'11" 3 point shooting PF/C in Rasheed Wallace, and no player who averaged more than 18 PPG.

'If he can't do what you need him to to win'..... then you do what the Bulls and Pistons did and find other pieces that pick up the slack on your main guy or core weaknesses and create a solid team.

Bargnani needs to be surrounded by players who are above average rebounders for their positions and great perimeter defenders.

It is tiring to see the same threads over and over again on what Bargnani can't do. He'll never be a great rebounder or help side defender - so put players around him who are and who can guard their own.

The Raptors are a team in transition who just spent 5 years trying to create a winner around Bosh who was paid max money for the last 3. Surely we can give BC, Bargnani (who makes 60% the money as Bosh with the Raptors) and co. more than a pre-season and 2 regular season games.

+1 everyone should stop bitching about bargnani and just live with it. He is what he is and so we should find players that will gel with him. the season has been going decent so far. all the whiners should just shaaadup. i mean all that in a nice way....not to come across like a dick but its so depressing to read the complaints to get to the good stuff.

[mcHAPPY]

I wasn't saying it wasn't Tiger's fault for what he did, but my point was it wasn't really a good comparison.

Who says you need a 7 footer to do certain things to win? History. A lot of it. All of it, actually.

And if Bargnani were an unearthly talent I could see completely building around him. But he's not. You don't build around decent players. The Raptors tried to build around a very good, non-traditional big man for years and it didn't work. And he was a perennial All-Star.

A better comparison? Bargnani is a really hot girl with absolutely no personality. She's great to look at but after a while, you realize there is absolutely no future in the relationship.

Good analogy. But some guys only want a trophy wife - lol like Tiger.

I would agree and disagree with the history. Agreed on the fact there is alot of it. Disagree that you can't win without a dominant big man. To be clear on a dominant big man, I'm talking about a 20ppg/10reb/1.5-2bpg or more. See Bulls, Pistons.

The difference between Bosh and Bargnani is Bosh was paid $16-$17M last year vs. Bargnani average salary of $10M. That difference of $6-7M can help pay for the things to put around Bargnani to be successful.

Also, I dont' mean to be singling out Bargnani here. He is only one piece of the puzzle, albeit a big piece. Because they have Bargnani, they need other pieces to compliment him - strong perimeter defenders and solid rebounders.

The same analogy could be used of DeRozan. He is a slasher with a decent mid-range jumper. For the team to be successful with him, he is going to need solid shooters to space the floor and keep the D honest (Jack/Calderon, Kleiza, Bargnani).

Evans is very one dimensional - hustle and rebound. You need guys to pick up the slack on his scoring woes.

I could go on but hopefully you get what I mean.