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  • Condisering the big man scarcity, the importance of big man who can shoot and the fact that Bargnani still has a couple of seasons to go on his contract, his tradevalue won't be bad at all, even if we wait a season. It's all matter of 'fit'.

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    • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
      Condisering the big man scarcity, the importance of big man who can shoot and the fact that Bargnani still has a couple of seasons to go on his contract, his tradevalue won't be bad at all, even if we wait a season. It's all matter of 'fit'.
      Two problems with keeping him another season. The first is simply age. The older Bargnani gets the less potential he has, and at this point, his "potential" is probably his biggest selling point. Secondly, if Casey fails to prevent Bargnani from being a liability on the floor, then he's pretty much run out of excuses. At least right now there might be teams that believe with the right system, Bargnani's defensive issues can be masked. Personally I think that's crap and a year in a good defensive system (assuming Casey's will be one) will only make it clear that you can't hide Bargnani on defense. Teams MIGHT still want to trade for him, but they're not going to want to give up much for him.
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      • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
        All I'm willing to on record with is that it's impossible to hold up the argument that he's bad at everything on defense. The available stats on defensive plays just don't back that one up at all. I'm sorry to say that some fans only see what they wanna see and somehow that's the idea "that he is this terrible defender that you can’t put out there."
        I've stated repeatedly that he's decent in certain circumstances, but overall he's just a bad defender and will hurt your team. While he's a good offensive player, he's simply not good enough at that end and he's too much of a liability on the other end to make him worth it.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
          All I'm willing to on record with is that it's impossible to hold up the argument that he's bad at everything on defense. The available stats on defensive plays just don't back that one up at all. I'm sorry to say that some fans only see what they wanna see and somehow that's the idea "that he is this terrible defender that you can’t put out there."
          I have never said that Bargnani is bad at everything on defence. However, I do still classify him as a very bad overall defender. If I was asked to name a strength on defense for Bargnani, I would have said his ability to guard other big men in the post and it's been that way since his rookie season. The stats show that he does an adequate job in a couple of situations that come up on the defensive end but in my mind that doesn't outweigh the things he does poorly.

          As fantastic as the advanced stat movement is, I think there are some cases where it doesn't tell the entire story. While breaking down every play on an individual basis provides more insight on the game then ever from an analytical point of view, it doesn't always capture that basketball is a team sport where five pieces have to interact in order to be successful. When I watch Bargnani play my feeling on just about every single night is that he's a terrible defender. There's been a few odd games over the last five years where I feel like he may be starting to get it but he usually regresses within minutes. I don't think anyone would argue that he's a good defender, and the term "terrible" is pretty subjective so I guess it's all about where you draw the line.

          I'd like to think that I watch the games with an open mind but maybe there's a little bias developing. Although, I'm a pretty loyal (read: sad and desperate) Raptors fan - I'm on the JV, Ed, Amir, DD, Casey bandwagons after all - so if I thought there was any chance of Bargnani turning into a decent defender anytime soon I'd probably gobble it up. Sadly, I don't think it's going to happen and it frustrates me that the team's direction is still building around a player like that. The talk of hiding him in a system like they did with Dirk in Dallas is crazy to me because Bargs is nowhere near his level in virtually all other aspects of the game. We're talking about one of the more transcendent and crafty offensive players in the history of the game against a 7 footer whose admittingly a match up problem on most nights but also a volume shooter and a ball stopper. And that doesn't even take into account that Dirk is a much better defensive rebounder than Bargnani.
          Last edited by Fully; Fri Aug 5, 2011, 08:56 AM.

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          • One problem I have is when people take his post defense and exaggerate it. It's adequate. It's not good. Not overall. Against certain types of players he does pretty well, but e also can struggle in the post if a player has quick feet and good footwork.

            As for watching with an open mind, I watch EVERYONE with an open mind but after a while you start to see things over and over and over again and you can't ignore them. People think I'm biased when it comes to Bargnani, but it's just that I've been watching him play nearly every game for 5 years. I know what to expect. It doesn't mean I'm biased.
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            • I was reading a bunch of people "discuss" if we should trade Bargs now or wait until the end of the season, when i had came up with a great idea!

              Why dont we keep Bargs for a month or two after the season starts, and let Casey (and Colangelo) decide if his defence rises to a suitable level (not completely terrible). If he does not trade him before other teams have done their research or make up some BS reason about not having a full season to make him improve. Hopefully, by doing this we will know if he will be able to improve defencively while other teams may not have the chance to judje him. If he improves and will fit in with the team great, if not his stock will not drop to much.

              He also will be the same age so his 'potential' should not change either.

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              • Zach Lowe: Bargnani is the 66th Best Player in the League.

                Zach Lowe has been ranking the Top 100 players in the NBA.
                Demar got a runner up selection, and I was really wondering if any of our guys would make the list. Well we can rest easy, as Andrea came through.

                Good write up on Andrea:

                66. Andrea Bargnani
                F-C, Toronto Raptors
                Age: 25
                2010-11 Stats: 21.4 PPG, 44.8 FG%, 34.5 3PT%, 5.2 RPG, 1.8 APG

                Many will hate this ranking, I realize. The Bargnani devotees who see the next Nowitzki — still — will yell and scream about how there is no way a guy who averaged 21.4 points per game should rank this low. And then there are those who believe that Bargnani’s historically bad rebounding makes him one of the worst players in NBA history.

                The truth is he’s somewhere in between, which is why we’re going to place him here — a dismally low spot for a No. 1 overall draft pick. But Bargnani is still a reasonably good player who could work in the right context (i.e. not as a No. 1 scoring option, surrounded by inexperienced or poor defenders). He is indeed terrible on the glass — one of the worst big man rebounders who has ever played in the NBA. That matters. To say he’s an equally bad defender is both true and too general. As Sebastian Pruiti has pointed out, Synergy numbers have consistently painted Bargnani as a solid defender in the post and in one-on-one situations. That is not a made-up thing or an exercise in excuse-making. The numbers are there, and the evidence is there on the video, if you remove the anti-Bargnani blinders.

                Unfortunately, the trouble starts when Bargnani has to move around the court, either to quash a pick-and-roll, help a teammate or dart out toward a shooter. He has never been much good at any of this. And this is the stuff big men have to be better at now, in an era where there aren’t too many back-to-the-basket brutes who play to Bargnani’s relative strengths.

                Add it all up, including the rebounding, and you’ve got a subpar big man defender at the center of just about every dismal Raptors lineup that took the floor last season.

                Ranking him here, at No. 66 and above a few intriguing bigs, reflects the confidence that Bargnani’s shooting percentages will rebound to their career norms, and that a slowly changing team context in Toronto — the hiring of Dwane Casey and the maturation of DeMar DeRozan, Ed Davis and others — will turn Bargnani into a better player and serve to hide his weaknesses a bit more.

                If Bargnani continues to flounder on defense, Gortat and Ibaka are going to blow right past him as all-around players. And if you wanted to put all of the four preceding big men — Gortat, Varejao, Ibaka and Okafor – ahead of Bargnani now, I wouldn’t argue.

                Bargnani was a less efficient scorer last season, since his three-point percentage dropped to 34.5 percent — around the league average — and his overall mark dropped along with it. In his defense, Bargnani is miscast as a No. 1 scoring option. Having a 7-footer who can shoot threes should help your team because it loosens up spacing so much, but the benefits are lost to some degree when you’re asking a third or second banana to do first-banana work.

                Bargnani should be an asset, especially since he started to get the line at an above-average rate last season. And given how alleged defensive sieves have turned their careers around when gifted better playing environments, it’s fun to wonder if Bargnani could emerge as a neutral defender under a guru coach and alongside an elite defensive player or two. Can that happen in Toronto? Hiring Casey is a start.
                Source

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                • Who is Zach Lowe and how did he just describe Andrea Bargnani so well in a few paragraphs? Very impressive.

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                  • Ya, I'd put those four big men ahead of Bargnani because none of them are liabilities. I think being right behind Jamaal Crawford is fitting, since both are volume shooters that don't do it all that efficiently and don't do anything else very well. And more coincidentally, Crawford is a PG-sized player who can't play PG, and Bargnani is a center-sized big man who apparently can't play center (or PF, for that matter). Crawford is going to hurt your team a little less than Bargnani because he's not a big man, so his defense isn't as much of a liability.

                    The rankings are interesting. Do you rank which player is "better" or which player is better at winning? Obviously Turkoglu is a better player than Shane Battier, but which one would you want on your team? And it obviously doesn't take into account potential. I think most Raptor fans would take DeAndre Jordan over Bargnani, but strictly speaking Bargnani might be a better player right at this moment. That might very well change when the season ever starts.
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                    • I think im going to hold on passing judgement on Bargnani's defense until after he's traded to another team or he gets benched which results in the raps winning games.

                      Right now, the Raptors is a bad defensive team, period. I dont think Bargnani alone is the cause. The whole team is bad defensively.

                      I think its really hard to determine statistically whether a player is good or bad defensively, IMO. there are just way too many variables. There are picks, non-calls, etc. And a team does not play the exact same teams, the same number of times every season, meaning the Raps may play Orlando once this season and then three times the next, which definitely affects Bargnani's Opponent PER coz he's going to face Howard more times than the last season.

                      If Bargnani is traded to a good defensive team and that team plummets to a losing season, then its time to point the finger at Bargnani, but until then, every player on the Raps roster is bad defensively, IMO.

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                      • I hate the rumors about bargnani playing PF and Amir getting traded. Amir is one of my favorite raptors and i don't want to see him gone cuz of some shlub like bargnani that cant figure out how to play defense. IMO BC should be doing all he can to get rid of bargnani and get someone that is at least half decent on the defensive end.

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                        • tbihis wrote: View Post
                          I think im going to hold on passing judgement on Bargnani's defense until after he's traded to another team or he gets benched which results in the raps winning games.

                          Right now, the Raptors is a bad defensive team, period. I dont think Bargnani alone is the cause. The whole team is bad defensively.

                          I think its really hard to determine statistically whether a player is good or bad defensively, IMO. there are just way too many variables. There are picks, non-calls, etc. And a team does not play the exact same teams, the same number of times every season, meaning the Raps may play Orlando once this season and then three times the next, which definitely affects Bargnani's Opponent PER coz he's going to face Howard more times than the last season.

                          If Bargnani is traded to a good defensive team and that team plummets to a losing season, then its time to point the finger at Bargnani, but until then, every player on the Raps roster is bad defensively, IMO.
                          Who needs statistics to see Bargnani is a bad defender? Just watch him. There are some guys who may be better defenders than they appear and visa versa, and statistics point to this. But with guys like Bargnani it's pretty obvious. At least to anyone who knows basketball.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • bballnut27 wrote: View Post
                            I was reading a bunch of people "discuss" if we should trade Bargs now or wait until the end of the season, when i had came up with a great idea!

                            Why dont we keep Bargs for a month or two after the season starts, and let Casey (and Colangelo) decide if his defence rises to a suitable level (not completely terrible). If he does not trade him before other teams have done their research or make up some BS reason about not having a full season to make him improve. Hopefully, by doing this we will know if he will be able to improve defencively while other teams may not have the chance to judje him. If he improves and will fit in with the team great, if not his stock will not drop to much.

                            He also will be the same age so his 'potential' should not change either.
                            There are four problems with this option. The first is that there are generally two periods when teams are looking to alter their roster. During the offseason and right before the trade deadline. It's not impossible to make a good trade a month or two into the season, but you'll be dealing with fewer teams looking to trade. That obviously isn't a good position to be in.

                            The second problem is that just because Bargnani plays well for a month or two doesn't mean he's turned the corner. Ability has never been his problem. Consistency has. I wouldn't be shocked if Bargnani opened up the first month of the season averaging 23-7. I would be shocked if he carried that out over the entire season. In February of 09, he averaged 17.9 ppg and 7.1 rpg. In January of 2010, he averaged 18.2 ppg and 6.7 rpg. This past season he averaged 25.6 ppg in February. So if Bargnani comes out of the gate playing well, obviously the Raptors aren't going to want to trade him because he's playing well. And they'll only want to trade him if he regresses, which is almost guaranteed to happen. And by that time everyone will know he'll probably not have any more excuses left.

                            Thirdly, it assumes that you're in the camp that believes that Bargnani still has a fair bit more potential. I don't. The guy has never, ever shown the potential that some seemed to see in him. The whole reason I didn't want the Raptors to draft him in the first place was because he was a jumpshooting big man with absolutely no acumen for defense and rebounding. And here we are five years later and he's a jumpshooting big man with absolutely no acumen for defense and rebounding. Why is anyone surprised?

                            Lastly, and more importantly, it assumes that other teams don't scout other teams, or their scouts are complete morons. If Bargnani is still struggling, even with a good defensive coach, the entire league is going to know when he's being offered up that he's run out of excuses. And then the Raptors are going to be screwed.

                            The only reason to keep Bargnani is if you truly believe that he's got the potential to be a decent rebounder and defender, and he's never once shown that potential, so I really don't see why you would.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • one of the worst big man rebounders who has ever played in the NBA. That matters. To say he’s an equally bad defender is both true and too general.
                              yet somehow

                              you’ve got a subpar big man defender at the center
                              ???

                              I'm sorry this Pruitti logic of "I can't paint, sculpt, write, sing, act or design but I'm awesome at colouring books so I'm not to bad of an artist" is lost on me.

                              reflects the confidence that Bargnani’s shooting percentages will rebound to their career norms
                              which is actually below what he shot last year (44.8% shooting vs 44.1% for his career)


                              Bargnani should be an asset
                              yes he SHOULD be. And he WOULD be if his role was changed significantly and his contract cut in half.... but apparently those things won't happen. So instead what he has been is a liability.

                              it’s fun to wonder if Bargnani could emerge as a neutral defender under a guru coach and alongside an elite defensive player or two
                              its not fun at all if you are a non-italian Raptors fan.

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                              • I also wanted to mention... its quite ironic Lowe has Jamal Crawford as the next player on that list. Someone many have compared Andrea to. Someone who found their niche, after years of being on terrible teams, as the scoring punch off the bench... not someone who you use as a starter and try to fit 4 other players around (good defenders, good rebounders, experienced players and a top scorer as Lowe referred to in his article on Andrea).

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