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  • I think some of you guys are scared of the thought of him turning it around. I think you've emotionally invested so much into disliking him that you're incapable of looking at this from a neutral perspective. I agree with Garbage Time, most will embrace a turn around and all that will be left is haters. I can live with that, in fact I'm hoping this scenario plays out because its the best scenario for the team I cheer for and I don't have a personal grudge against a man I've never met.

    If it doesn't happen, well, whatever. There are lots of trade options and an Amnesty Clause. No need to get bent out of shape about the thought though. Like I said, some may need to rethink things if the "unspeakable" happens.

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    • Apollo wrote: View Post
      I think some of you guys are scared of the thought of him turning it around. I think you've emotionally invested so much into disliking him that you're incapable of looking at this from a neutral perspective. I agree with Garbage Time, most will embrace a turn around and all that will be left is haters. I can live with that, in fact I'm hoping this scenario plays out because its the best scenario for the team I cheer for and I don't have a personal grudge against a man I've never met.

      If it doesn't happen, well, whatever. There are lots of trade options and an Amnesty Clause. No need to get bent out of shape about the thought though. Like I said, some may need to rethink things if the "unspeakable" happens.
      It will just be the inverse of what already happened.

      How many people who right now think the team should go in a direction away from Bargnani at one point were excited, patient or supportive of him?

      When you play an important role on a team or take up a chunk of the teams resources fans expect you to produce accordingly... if you do they support you, if you don't they dislike you and if you hurt the team they get upset with you. The more relevance you have to a team the more profound the fan opinion is.

      I can honestly say I'm not holding my breath. We hear this talk about Bargs at the start of every season - "there will be some change in him". I' can only speak for myself but I'm not expecting it to happen, be large or sustained. As always I hope I'm wrong.

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      • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
        It will just be the inverse of what already happened.

        How many people who right now think the team should go in a direction away from Bargnani at one point were excited, patient or supportive of him?
        Me!

        When you play an important role on a team or take up a chunk of the teams resources fans expect you to produce accordingly... if you do they support you, if you don't they dislike you and if you hurt the team they get upset with you. The more relevance you have to a team the more profound the fan opinion is.

        I can honestly say I'm not holding my breath. We hear this talk about Bargs at the start of every season - "there will be some change in him". I' can only speak for myself but I'm not expecting it to happen, be large or sustained. As always I hope I'm wrong.

        Good point in the first paragraph and I certainly agree.

        In the second paragraph, I agree. However I have succumbed to the same optimism again this year. In hindsight this is the first year that truly warrants a sliver of optimism. No more coddling, tough coach, defense is being preached and applied. All we need is accountability and we might be shocked afterall.

        *Disclaimer* I can honestly say I'm not holding my breather, either.

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        • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
          It will just be the inverse of what already happened.

          How many people who right now think the team should go in a direction away from Bargnani at one point were excited, patient or supportive of him?

          When you play an important role on a team or take up a chunk of the teams resources fans expect you to produce accordingly... if you do they support you, if you don't they dislike you and if you hurt the team they get upset with you. The more relevance you have to a team the more profound the fan opinion is.

          I can honestly say I'm not holding my breath. We hear this talk about Bargs at the start of every season - "there will be some change in him". I' can only speak for myself but I'm not expecting it to happen, be large or sustained. As always I hope I'm wrong.
          I agree with this partially but I will say that it's not that simple. There are some Toronto team fans who have proven time and time again that once someone gets on their bad side it's really tough to "redeem" themselves. Mats Sundin is a prime example. The guy gave his heart and soul to his club and still he received b.s. from some fans and some media right up until he left. They didn't know what they had. I'm not comparing Bargnani to Sundin but if he does turn it around I fear it will never be enough for some fans and some media.

          Do I think he'll turn it around? That is irrelevant to the point I am making. I will say I have seen enough amazing turnarounds in sports to know not to rule anything out. If it happens he has my full support. If it doesn't happen and there is no sign of things changing by the end of the season then I expect something to be changed in a more drastic way, like a trade... Especially if there is a PF in the draft who fits well here.

          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          No more coddling, tough coach, defense is being preached and applied. All we need is accountability and we might be shocked afterall.
          Yes and it's exactly what he needs. He could have had it from day one had Colangelo not "baby proofed" Sam Mitchell. Smitch had no limits on Bosh when he came out and he molded the guy into a fine athlete. No, he isn't to receive credit for it all but he helped a lot, just like he helped Kevin Garnett as a player coach in Minnesota. KG credits Sam Mitchell with a lot in terms of how far he's achieved because Sam was so influential in his early years in the league. Bargnani missed out on Mitchell's effectiveness because Colangelo tied his hands. Well, Casey isn't being baby proofed and it's about to hit the fan for Bargnani. It's bring it our get the hell out time. I'm hoping he brings it.

          Comment


          • “(Bargnani’s) impressed me with his defensive approach, his rebounding. Now we have to transfer that into a game situation,” Casey said.

            “That has been his criticism and the only way you can do away with that is come out and perform as he has.”

            Casey believes Bargnani is also growing into more of a leadership role after years of being a low-key locker room presence.

            “He’s speaking up, asking questions. He stepped up in the team meeting the other night, said what was on his mind, what we needed.”
            You know, this may turn out to be a case of a kid who wasn't mature enough for the opportunities and responsibilities that were bestowed on to him at an early age. I've even known cases of this in my own life where it just took time for some of my friends to "grow up" before they could really appreciate what they could do and to feel a force pulling them towards what they must do. Immaturity tends to be about finding the easy way out, maturity tends to be about doing when you need to do no matter if you like it or not; you can't turn your back on it because your conscience won't allow it, you feel accountable. I hope this is the case. I hope's he's now feeling accountable. When you feel accountable typically shame comes into play when you fail your duties. That in itself can be a great driver.

            “Andrea’s next step is accepting the contact inside. Initializing, (being a) physical, post up player and taking advantage of his size in the paint. We’re going to run a lot of sets for him to get the ball to him inside that’s what’s going to help keep the other teams off balance ... it’s going to help him as an all-around player because teams can’t key on (only his outside game).”
            Yes, finally a coach who is going to try to get our big men playing in the paint. I'm so tired of seeing giants standing around taking jumpers all night long. It has it's place but lets get balance. I like this.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              I agree with this partially but I will say that it's not that simple. There are some Toronto team fans who have proven time and time again that once someone gets on their bad side it's really tough to "redeem" themselves. Mats Sundin is a prime example. The guy gave his heart and soul to his club and still he received b.s. from some fans and some media right up until he left. They didn't know what they had. I'm not comparing Bargnani to Sundin but if he does turn it around I fear it will never be enough for some fans and some media.

              Do I think he'll turn it around? That is irrelevant to the point I am making. I will say I have seen enough amazing turnarounds in sports to know not to rule anything out. If it happens he has my full support. If it doesn't happen and there is no sign of things changing by the end of the season then I expect something to be changed in a more drastic way, like a trade... Especially if there is a PF in the draft who fits well here.

              The number of leaf fans who didn't like Sundin, over the course of his career, is small. Near the end of his career things were different, but they felt the team needed to change direction, rebuild, and he was the best trade chip the team had and his age prevented him from being a long term player. Since he didn't want to give up his no trade clause, alot of fans were bothered by it. But that just goes to show no player is above the the welfare of the team. I for one felt the same way with Bosh. I always felt he was overrated and overpaid, but a very talented player and deserving all-star none the less. Yet when he turned down the contract extension I thought it was in the best interest of the team to trade him. I could care less that he was a reliable 20 and 10, that he had been the best player on the team for 5 years.... his trade value was at its maximum, he wasn't a franchise player and there was no guarantees he was sticking around long term. I heard it out the wazoo how I wasn't a 'real fan', that I didn't understand basketball etc etc.

              There are no doubt fans who dislike a player, or will always dislike a player, for whatever reason they have. I'm not sure expecting 100% support of a player (any player) is realistic or reasonable. If Bargnani turns it around I guarantee the vast majority of fans will be supportive and excited about him. Will some not? ofcourse. But they will be few and far between.... and I don't think anyone should expect everyone to have the same opinion, view, level of support, or whatever, of a player. Having dissenting or critical views is not a bad thing. It at the very least keeps everyone on their toes.

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              • In one of Casey's interviews, he mentioned that professional athletes (in any sport) need to be comfortable with contact, and getting our guys to that point will be something he focuses on in training camp. I really liked hearing that. Last year, there were very few players (guards included) who would be willing to absorb bumps and bruises in the trenches, but I hope that changes throughout the course of the season.

                Having played high school football in a past life, the first day of practice can be somewhat difficult to jump right into full contact drills. There's a slight element of fear that can cause a player to hesitate. But once contact becomes the norm, the players loosen up, brace for contact, hit harder, and believe it or not, get injured less often. The fear is gone.

                I'm looking for that same mental "switch" to be flipped with the Raptors under Casey (with help from Magloire, Gray, Butler and Carter).
                Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:32 AM.

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                • I played hockey competitively for all my childhood and teenage years. I hear you on the element of fear. I've seen some "superstars" in practice look entirely different come game time. I think the key is to just hit somebody. If you start hitting guys, initiating the contact, it gives you a greater sense of control. It opens you up and replaces hesitation/fear with adrenalin and fire. Then when the hits are coming your way you're thinking or reacting as opposed to panicking or cowering. I know it's not always that simple but the mind can be your best tool or your worst enemy.

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                  • One thing to note: If Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding under Casey, how long do we wait until we can confidently say he's "turned it around"? 10 games? 50 games?

                    If Bargnani comes out and averages 9 boards per game for the first 20 games, I will be pleasantly surprised. But those 20 games will not make me forget about the previous 367 games he's played.

                    My point is that, one way or another, we won't have much evidence to support his turnaround until we see at least a full season's work. But what the "haters" don't appreciate is that Bargnani has been given this many chances to prove his worth, because his presence on the roster significantly impacts the development of younger players.

                    Somewhere, I bet Joey Graham wishes the Raptors gave him a 6-year tryout. And if the Raptors did so, where do we think DeRozan's game would be right now?
                    Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:48 AM.

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                    • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                      One thing to note: If Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding under Casey, how long do we wait until we can confidently say he's "turned it around"? 10 games? 50 games?

                      If Bargnani comes out and averages 9 boards per game for the first 20 games, I will be pleasantly surprised. But those 20 games will not make me forget about the previous 367 games he's played.

                      My point is that, one way or another, we won't have much evidence to support his turnaround until we see at least a full season's work. But what the "haters" don't appreciate is that Bargnani has been given this many chances to prove his worth, because his presence on the roster significantly impacts the development of younger players.

                      Somewhere, I bet Joey Graham wishes the Raptors gave him a 6-year tryout.
                      That is a decision for Colangelo. The trade deadline is the 15th of March - or has been reported to be. The draft is June 28th. The summer offseason usually starts around July 8th.

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                      • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        One thing to note: If Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding under Casey, how long do we wait until we can confidently say he's "turned it around"? 10 games? 50 games?
                        Its not going to be overnight and it depends on your definition of "turning it around". Your interpretation if it could be different than mine.

                        Trading Bargnani doesn't have to happen at the trade deadline. I think it shouldn't. I think it should be at the draft at the earliest.

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                        • This has definitely been one of the more civil and well thought out threads about the Bargnani conundrum.

                          I prefer to see debates of this nature when it comes to Andrea. We all have our opinions of him good and bad, but at least the ability is there to be rational and non-offensive when it comes to discussing his future with the team.

                          My 2 cents? I'm in the hoping we can trade him camp. If he turns it around thats great, I'm just not a huge fan of players that have been in the league for years and need coaches to motivate them to play the game the right way. I prefer players that have that desire inherent within them.
                          Last edited by sleepz; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:08 AM.

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                          • Those guys are rare and those guys might not produce anything more than the guy who needs his hand held, after he finds his way. I don't care how they get there as long as they get there. My point of accountability above, if he feels accountable he'll get his "blue collar work" done. Surely now he knows the only way to improve is to open his game to areas he's been disinterested in the past. I've never heard a coach mentioned such positives about his approach and his game during camp like Casey is now. They have a greatly talented player with a major flaw and it's well known. Best case scenario is Casey helps fix it to some degree, worst case he fails. Either scenario he can be traded if it's to the best interest of the club but the best case scenario leads to a better return. He should stay the whole season at least.

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                            • Ehh... I still say that's extremely unlikely to "get it", let alone to improve enough to justify keeping him over Ed or Amir. I sincerely believe that, objectively, it's in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani.

                              I do hope that he improves, he was a fav player on the team for a long time. I was one of his few fans that actually stuck through that the now-or-never thing in his 5th season. But it's extremely unlikely he turns it around. To even get back to the level he was at before Bosh left is a huge leap.
                              Last edited by WhatWhat; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:13 PM.

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                              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                So, if your girlfriend constantly cheated on you, and cheated on everyone she's ever been out with, do you think you should ignore history and believe that this time it will be different? Or should you be forgiven for accepting that things will probably never change and move on? Which sounds more reasonable to you?
                                I get your point, but the problem is, a cheating gf has no room for improvement. You cant monitor her 24 hours a day (unless youre a stalker), she can tell you one thing and do another without you knowing it. The difference with Bargnani is he can say he'll defend, and if he doesnt do it, then Casey will see it, and can show or instruct him on how to improve. Will he disobey? Sure. But im sure he'll get reprimanded. Can you tell your GF not to cheat coz if she does you'll reprimand her? I dont think so.

                                Also, your GF cheats on you, and you alone. Bargnani couldve "cheated" on Smitch, then Triano, do you think at this point Casey will allow it? Probably not.

                                And ive said before, once the season starts, history becomes after-the-fact. No one really knows what going to happen during the season. If Bargnani does play the same way he did last season when this season is over, you can go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back but again, its after-the-fact. you cant say he's going be the same way he was last season, unless you have a crystal ball.

                                sorry, but i think i went off topic there for a minute. what was being discussed was IF Bargnani turned it around, should people support him and if they dont, then that just means that its just beyond basketball, well, i can say youre probably one of those people. Even IF Bargnani turns it around, youll still be one of those people who'll have the past 5 seasons hanging over his head. And thats fine with me.
                                Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:24 PM.

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