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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Listen, I'm basing all my arguments on financial numbers, CBA rules, statistics (both simple and advanced), and other teams successes with Boozer as a major part of it. I am more than willing to agree to disagree. But I've yet to see any argument based on something other than someone's opinion that validates the notion that trading for Bargnani for Boozer is a bad move for the Raptors franchise. It does not add up in the accounting books or on the court (production and cost of Bargnani/full MLE vs. Boozer/mini-MLE). I would like to see something based on more than unsubstantiated opinions or views.

    Regarding the bold, I think it is pretty obvious the team needs to move on from Bargnani. When you have one of the worst contracts in the league and amnestying him does nothing to help you, you have to recognize you are not going to get an ideal situation. Much like Gay's $17M contract, if Gay was paid $12M there would have been very little uproar over his contact. If Boozer was paid $10M like David West (who Boozer is actually one year younger than) or even $11M, I don't think there would be any issue with this trade. The years are the same.
    You might be right on that, but I also still think, as it seems you do, that it is not a great option in terms of the players they could try to add, just that it's better than keeping Bargs. So I will keep hoping that they do not want to take this deal. Frankly, though I see the need to be rid of Bargs, I also don't mind the franchise waiting if they don't like what offers they have. I do think a Boozer deal would still be there in the summer(and maybe then they can get a 2014 1st rder thrown in??) , as will a Gasol deal maybe if they prefer that(which doesn't seem likely in season), if they want to go that route. Not sure if there's a big market for Boozer. Don't remember seeing him connected to another team.

    I just don't see it as a move that needs to be made now at all...even if it ends up being what they do...With the Bulls, this scenario is probably the only one where the Raps are dealing from a position of strength, so they should be patient if they don't think it's the best trade.
    Do you go for what's available now or do you maintain your preferred targets and find a way to acquire them? I think this is the question it comes down too....and I'd go the latter route if Boozer is what's available now...keep trying to get a different deal and only take this one if you feel you have no choice in the end....with the offseason being the end.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:13 PM.

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    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      I definitely agree with you that it's stupid to amnesty him.

      And on the other stuff...Boozer could be a good chip...but also, as is, only JV, Demar and Ross figure to be signed at that time, which is the 19 million I assume??...So really, that only matters if BC considers it a bonus over, say trading for Pau in the summer (I don't know, just throwing shit out there) which would stagger the money coming off, but create a much different situation (probably a worse one for being FA players).
      JV, DeMar, and Ross are signed for 2015-16 for a combined $19M.

      Boozer's last season on the books for Toronto would be 2014-15. Boozer is either a trade chip in February 2015 or cap space in July.

      I don't think trading for Pau does much for Toronto in terms of free agency because in 2014 Raps are still just $8M below cap without a starting PG. However, when it comes to trading where cap holds don't impact salary cap space for the purpose of satisfying CBA requirements, Gasol would be an advantage. I would prefer Gasol over Boozer but think Gasol will be much more difficult to acquire due to current Raptor cap situation, Laker situation, and Raptor trade assets.

      I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.

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      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
        JV, DeMar, and Ross are signed for 2015-16 for a combined $19M.

        Boozer's last season on the books for Toronto would be 2014-15. Boozer is either a trade chip in February 2015 or cap space in July.

        I don't think trading for Pau does much for Toronto in terms of free agency because in 2014 Raps are still just $8M below cap without a starting PG. However, when it comes to trading where cap holds don't impact salary cap space for the purpose of satisfying CBA requirements, Gasol would be an advantage. I would prefer Gasol over Boozer but think Gasol will be much more difficult to acquire due to current Raptor cap situation, Laker situation, and Raptor trade assets.

        I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.
        I've talked myself into it too.
        @Chr1st1anL

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        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.
          I'm stilll hoping if it's an in-season move, it's Ilyasova or bust....Boozer and Gasol are good targets for the summer. And given UTH or ATL wouldn't want Bargs and it would be hard to make another deal work, the offseason and a sign and trade would also probably be the time to pursue Millsap (Who is up there with Ilyasova as my top 2 choices in no particular order...depending on how big a role they want the player to fill) or Smith (who I don't want at all, just subjectively).

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          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            You might be right on that, but I also still think, as it seems you do, that it is not a great option in terms of the players they could try to add, just that it's better than keeping Bargs. So I will keep hoping that they do not want to take this deal. Frankly, though I see the need to be rid of Bargs, I also don't mind the franchise waiting if they don't like what offers they have. I do think a Boozer deal would still be there in the summer(and maybe then they can get a 2014 1st rder thrown in??) , as will a Gasol deal maybe if they prefer that(which doesn't seem likely in season), if they want to go that route. Not sure if there's a big market for Boozer. Don't remember seeing him connected to another team.

            I just don't see it as a move that needs to be made now at all...even if it ends up being what they do...With the Bulls, this scenario is probably the only one where the Raps are dealing from a position of strength, so they should be patient if they don't think it's the best trade.
            Do you go for what's available now or do you maintain your preferred targets and find a way to acquire them? I think this is the question it comes down too....and I'd go the latter route if Boozer is what's available now...keep trying to get a different deal and only take this one if you feel you have no choice in the end.
            I don't think Chicago will ever be as desperate to unload him as they are going to be in the next 7 days due to the CBA rules that luxury tax/yearly payroll is determined by the total of contracts on books as of last day of regular season game. That means February 21st is the last day to shed contracts. If you can get a 1st rd pick out of the Bulls, do it.

            Considering the Raps are 17-13 in last 30 (12-11 without Gay), I think adding Boozer to the mix/subtracting Bargnani makes 19-10 over last 29 semi reasonable. I'd like to see the trade done sooner than later considering the ramifications of Toronto making the playoffs this season.

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            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              I'm stilll hoping if it's an in-season move, it's Ilyasova or bust....Boozer and Gasol are good targets for the summer. And given UTH or ATL wouldn't want Bargs and it would be hard to make another deal work, the offseason and a sign and trade would also probably be the time to pursue Millsap (Who is up there with Ilyasova as my top 2 choices in no particular order...depending on how big a role they want the player to fill) or Smith (who I don't want at all, just subjectively).
              Ilyasova is my preferred trade acquisition as well but as mentioned in previous reply, if Boozer only option, I'd take it. Playoffs for this season seem realistic given Raps are 17-13 in previous 30 games (with 3 blown 20-point leads) and 19-10 over final 29 gets them 40 wins.

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              • psrs1 wrote: View Post
                Don't worry about the cap if Bell and Rogers are not. The key is putting a winning team on the court.
                I'm not worried about spending money. I was simply pointing out that amnestying Bargnani isn't going to be some magic elixir that suddenly opens up a world of possibilities in the offseason. The Raps need to dump salary (ie: Kleiza) just to have access to all their exceptions. To go after a player worth more than $5M, the Raps would need to do so in a trade (or a S&T) involving either Bargnani or DeRozan, in order for salaries to balance and have the trade work under the CBA.

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                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  I don't think Chicago will ever be as desperate to unload him as they are going to be in the next 7 days due to the CBA rules that luxury tax/yearly payroll is determined by the total of contracts on books as of last day of regular season game. That means February 21st is the last day to shed contracts. If you can get a 1st rd pick out of the Bulls, do it.
                  Yeah, I agree with that, I was just saying that they may be desperate now, but they will still be in the summer, right? With Gibson's extension kicking in and having to round out the roster even with minimum contracts, they'lll have a hard time improving their situation...I don't know. It's a tough call. I don't know how much I value a pick for this year. And I don't know if maybe I'd value a 2014 pick more if it can be squeezed out of them in the offseason. Maybe ask for it now. IF they give in, I might take it.
                  *It's extra good to get that now over the summer if that's the best deal...You get Boozer, definitely improve playoff chances. You keep the pick from the Lowry trade this year. You go into next year a playoff team, with a 2014 pick as well.
                  Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:40 PM.

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                  • So, with things quieted down as they inevitably do before the deadline (the final storm)...I was pondering what would I be willing to do to get this deal done??? All the talk of Boozer has left me thinking....if people are willing to take on 15 million a year of Boozer, what throw ins will they accept with Ilyasova, who at 7.9 mill, makes a pretty large sum less than Boozer...
                    Candidates as I see them:
                    -Ekpe Udoh....if the Bucks don't see him in future plans, they may want to create an open roster space soon, and he'd be among the better options (as he could be a backup C/F) on their roster. His contract could be up next season (4.5ish million), and if we don't see him in future plans, we don't have to give him a qualifying offer and can renounce him.

                    -Drew Gooden....Just as long as Boozer/Bargs contracts...making 6.7ish million per season expiring in 2015. He's a piece of crap that can't be amnestied....but to put things in perspective, adding his contract to Ilyasova still commits less money than going after Boozer (roughly 14.5 million against 15+) over the next 2+ seasons. I want Ilyasova and I'm still not sure I'd do this. I'd say if they took Kleiza it'd help, but the Raps can just amnesty Kleiza if that's what it comes to, though I suppose if they'd take him now, it couldn't hurt. Will Gooden be able to even provide any help even as a backup C/F or end up being the most overpaid 6th big in the NBA since Yogi Stewart graced Toronto with his presence?

                    -Udrih, Dalembert...only because of expiring contracts. Both could be stopgap depth players. I really don't want Dalembert. Don't like players that bring a fresh bag of crazy to every situation they touch. Udrih would be fine, but I feel like they'll try to use him in a better deal or let him expire. These are obvious players they could probably move, but I doubt either ends up doing so in a Bargs trade.

                    So if the worst thing we can take is Gooden, would you??? Hard to say I would, but I can't say I wouldn't.
                    *Note, damn hard to work the salaries of this trade...would pretty much require them taking back Kleiza, or being willing to part with someone like Gray (I think a solid value player).
                    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:12 PM.

                    Comment


                    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      So, with things quieted down as they inevitably do before the deadline (the final storm)...I was pondering what would I be willing to do to get this deal done??? All the talk of Boozer has left me thinking....if people are willing to take on 15 million a year of Boozer, what throw ins will they accept with Ilyasova, who at 7.9 mill, makes a pretty large sum less than Boozer...
                      Candidates as I see them:
                      -Ekpe Udoh....if the Bucks don't see him in future plans, they may want to create an open roster space soon, and he'd be among the better options (as he could be a backup C/F) on their roster. His contract could be up next season (4.5ish million), and if we don't see him in future plans, we don't have to give him a qualifying offer and can renounce him.

                      -Drew Gooden....Just as long as Boozer/Bargs contracts...making 6.7ish million per season expiring in 2015. He's a piece of crap that can't be amnestied....but to put things in perspective, adding his contract to Ilyasova still commits less money than going after Boozer (roughly 14.5 million against 15+) over the next 2+ seasons. I want Ilyasova and I'm still not sure I'd do this. I'd say if they took Kleiza it'd help, but the Raps can just amnesty Kleiza if that's what it comes to, though I suppose if they'd take him now, it couldn't hurt. Will Gooden be able to even provide any help even as a backup C/F or end up being the most overpaid 6th big in the NBA since Yogi Stewart graced Toronto with his presence?

                      -Udrih, Dalembert...only because of expiring contracts. Both could be stopgap depth players. I really don't want Dalembert. Don't like players that bring a fresh bag of crazy to every situation they touch. Udrih would be fine, but I feel like they'll try to use him in a better deal or let him expire. These are obvious players they could probably move, but I doubt either ends up doing so in a Bargs trade.

                      So if the worst thing we can take is Gooden, would you??? Hard to say I would, but I can't say I wouldn't.
                      I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.

                      Comment


                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.
                        Agreed. With Ilyasova coming in AS the prospect big, veteran pieces - especially guys like Gooden who is capable of playing on the inside - would better suit us.
                        Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.
                          RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                          Agreed. With Ilyasova coming in AS the prospect big, veteran pieces - especially guys like Gooden who is capable of playing on the inside - would better suit us.
                          Ok, I just wanted to check if I was going a bit crazy. I honestly don't know what Gooden has left. Has he been injured this year? What the heck happened? He was somewhere between serviceable and solid, even last year....

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                          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            Ok, I just wanted to check if I was going a bit crazy. I honestly don't know what Gooden has left. Has he been injured this year? What the heck happened? He was somewhere between serviceable and solid, even last year....
                            *Especially last year. That guy was putting up some scary numbers. Anyways, I think it's because Milwaukee has started to try developing their younger guys. Ilyasova, Udoh, Henson, etc.
                            Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                            • Not convinced with Boozer

                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Ilyasova is my preferred trade acquisition as well but as mentioned in previous reply, if Boozer only option, I'd take it. Playoffs for this season seem realistic given Raps are 17-13 in previous 30 games (with 3 blown 20-point leads) and 19-10 over final 29 gets them 40 wins.
                              I prefer 2 big men over Boozer. First is Emeka Okafor. Defensively, I think that he rebounds and blocks well for a centre. He's earning 13.4 million and 2 years left. Also, this allows Amir to continue at the 4. There's no way we can roll with JV if the team is serious about the playoff push. My next choice would be Kris Humphries at 12Mil with 2 years left. He's a big body that rebounds. His defense is still better than Boozers. My concern with Boozer besides money is that he'll also need touches. Both Okafor and Humps won't need it as much. Ilyasova is a pipe dream but if Dalembert and Ilyasova is offered for Bargs, I'd jump on that ASAP!
                              “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                              • Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                                I prefer 2 big men over Boozer. First is Emeka Okafor. Defensively, I think that he rebounds and blocks well for a centre. He's earning 13.4 million and 2 years left. Also, this allows Amir to continue at the 4. There's no way we can roll with JV if the team is serious about the playoff push. My next choice would be Kris Humphries at 12Mil with 2 years left. He's a big body that rebounds. His defense is still better than Boozers. My concern with Boozer besides money is that he'll also need touches. Both Okafor and Humps won't need it as much. Ilyasova is a pipe dream but if Dalembert and Ilyasova is offered for Bargs, I'd jump on that ASAP!
                                To your point about Boozer needing touches, that's EXACTLY what this team needs. Any low post presence... Defensively, we seemed to have improved significantly since the deal made, and we are starting to get exposed on the inside offensively, with no true paint scorer. All are coming from the perimeter. Humphries AND Okafor don't address any of our current issues.

                                Speaking about JV, JV is already battle tested, if things aren't going right, I actually feel fairly confident in rolling Gray out there, because he fits better in a half-court situation at this point (playoffs is a MUCH slower, half-court played game), and because JV still hasn't developed his low post game being a rookie.
                                Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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