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  • RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    Horrible center??? He was 5th in scoring as center last season. We all know he needs to get his rebounding and team D up but he is by no means a "horrible" center.
    I disagree. I don't think it is really worth playing him even if he scores because his defense is so bad other than the fact we have no other viable options. If he was a shooting guard, he would be very valuable, but not at the center position. He isn't good at rebounding, boxing out, positioning, is horrendous at help defense, nor is his one on one defense that good. Worst of all, he just watches players drive the lane or watch other players dunk it while getting out of the way. He invites people to the paint because they know they can attack him. That hurts us overall because our perimeter defense suffers when we can't keep players out of the paint. I'm not saying Bargnani isn't talented or a bad basketball player but he plays the center position very poorly.

    Lastly, I don't think you can ever judge a player simply by the amount he scores.

    Comment


    • RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
      I know what he was trying to say and it isn't a fair statement. People are reacting and overreacting to the notion of Bargs as a top ten center but my point again is that this notion is not as far fetched as Jose being considered a top ten pg.
      Apparently you don't understand what I was saying. I never said anyone was saying that Bargnani is an MVP candidate, as you alluded to in your earlier post. My point was that just because someone scores a lot of points, doesn't make them one of the better players. My example of Monta Ellis was brought up because he was among the best in the league in scoring, but he's certainly not considered one of the elite players in the league. The reason is because he just scores, and that's because he takes a lot of shots. Bargnani might end up being the top scoring center in the league, but that doesn't make him better than those centers who rebound and play defense at a high level. No one outside of Raptor and Bargnani fans would ever rank him among the top ten centers in the league. He's simply too poor at rebounding and defense, which are very important for a big man. You can even get away with two out of three (scoring, rebounding, defense), but not one.

      Simply put, there is no way Bargnani is better than Howard, Yao, Bogut, Lopez, Noah, Horford, Nene, Kaman, Bynum or Gasol, or a healthy Oden. Only Noah, Nene and Oden aren't threats on both ends of the court, but they more than make up for that with game changing defense. That's 11 players. And that doesn't include Perkins, Okur, Dalembert, Okafor or Camby, all who could be easily argued to be better than Bargnani. Only a few of them match his offensive skills, but the fact of the matter is, they are vastly superior on the boards and on defense.

      Yes, offense is important, but not in lieu of defense and rebounding. Not when you're 7 feet.

      Earlier, I brought up a 6 foot player who was a great shooter, but couldn't handle the ball or pass. When you're 6 feet, you're kind of expected to do those things. If you can't, you're simply not ever going to be anything but a role player.

      I brought Calderon being a top 10 PG up because some felt that Bargnani was being unfairly picked on. He's being criticized as much as he is because his fans seem to overrate him, and don't tend to even back up their opinions. If I started touting Calderon as a top ten PG, lots of people would take issue. It wouldn't mean that Calderon was getting unfairly picked on. It would mean that I'm overrating Calderon. Yes, Bargnani MAY be closer to being a top ten center than Calderon is a top ten PG, but that doesn't matter. The point I was making is that when someone or a group of people constantly overrate a player, people are going to react.

      You seem to often focus too much on the actual examples instead of the meaning behind the examples. They're simply meant as illustrations, not as literal comparisons.
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      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
        Apparently you don't understand what I was saying. I never said anyone was saying that Bargnani is an MVP candidate, as you alluded to in your earlier post. My point was that just because someone scores a lot of points, doesn't make them one of the better players. My example of Monta Ellis was brought up because he was among the best in the league in scoring, but he's certainly not considered one of the elite players in the league. The reason is because he just scores, and that's because he takes a lot of shots. Bargnani might end up being the top scoring center in the league, but that doesn't make him better than those centers who rebound and play defense at a high level. No one outside of Raptor and Bargnani fans would ever rank him among the top ten centers in the league. He's simply too poor at rebounding and defense, which are very important for a big man. You can even get away with two out of three (scoring, rebounding, defense), but not one.

        Simply put, there is no way Bargnani is better than Howard, Yao, Bogut, Lopez, Noah, Horford, Nene, Kaman, Bynum or Gasol, or a healthy Oden. Only Noah, Nene and Oden aren't threats on both ends of the court, but they more than make up for that with game changing defense. That's 11 players. And that doesn't include Perkins, Okur, Dalembert, Okafor or Camby, all who could be easily argued to be better than Bargnani. Only a few of them match his offensive skills, but the fact of the matter is, they are vastly superior on the boards and on defense.

        Yes, offense is important, but not in lieu of defense and rebounding. Not when you're 7 feet.

        Earlier, I brought up a 6 foot player who was a great shooter, but couldn't handle the ball or pass. When you're 6 feet, you're kind of expected to do those things. If you can't, you're simply not ever going to be anything but a role player.

        I brought Calderon being a top 10 PG up because some felt that Bargnani was being unfairly picked on. He's being criticized as much as he is because his fans seem to overrate him, and don't tend to even back up their opinions. If I started touting Calderon as a top ten PG, lots of people would take issue. It wouldn't mean that Calderon was getting unfairly picked on. It would mean that I'm overrating Calderon. Yes, Bargnani MAY be closer to being a top ten center than Calderon is a top ten PG, but that doesn't matter. The point I was making is that when someone or a group of people constantly overrate a player, people are going to react.

        You seem to often focus too much on the actual examples instead of the meaning behind the examples. They're simply meant as illustrations, not as literal comparisons.
        LOL. RaptorRoo could have just read the two little paragraphs you wrote, but now he stuck with this one. If he doesn't get what you wrote previously, what makes you think he'll get this? LOL

        Comment


        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
          I brought Calderon being a top 10 PG up because some felt that Bargnani was being unfairly picked on. He's being criticized as much as he is because his fans seem to overrate him, and don't tend to even back up their opinions.
          Its more fun and faster to use the "throw enough spaghetti at the wall and some of it will stick" approach. That way you don't have to take the time and make the effort to dig up those old numbers or find a link or two to support what you write.
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          • Bargs should go all bad-ass this year, sort of a WWE personna. Maybe in the first game or two forearm someone across the face, tell off the refs and get kicked out. Emulate his style after Razor Ramone (I know, not Italian, but close). Make people think twice about coming in the paint. Not for getting their shot blocked, but for getting their nose broken.

            Comment


            • I am not sure how much people weigh "Win Shares" into thier evaluation of talent, but last year the top 5 Centers according to this stat were:
              Howard
              Horford
              Gasol (Marc)
              Lopez
              Bynum

              Bargnani (who was slated as a PF on Basketball Reference) had a win share of 4.2 last year (tying him with Nenad Kristic) and ranking him as the 13th best center. Bosh had a 9.6 and interestingly enough (which I am sure Buddah has pointed out) Johnson had a 4.6.

              Center's "Win Share" link - remember Bargs is not on this list because they listed him as a PF.

              Bargnani's Offensive Win Share is 3.3 (placing him 7th among Centers)
              Bargnani's Defensive Win Share is 0.9 (placing him tied for 32nd with David Anderson and Andris Biedrins)
              Last edited by BC Boy; Sat Sep 4, 2010, 11:23 AM.

              Comment


              • JoePanini wrote: View Post
                LOL. RaptorRoo could have just read the two little paragraphs you wrote, but now he stuck with this one. If he doesn't get what you wrote previously, what makes you think he'll get this? LOL
                You're probably right. Sometimes I just start typing and don't realize how much I've typed until I press the post button.
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                • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  You're probably right. Sometimes I just start typing and don't realize how much I've typed until I press the post button.
                  That happens to me too, sometimes. Especially when I write stuff about Bargs. LOL.

                  Comment


                  • Perkins is only 24, so adding Barg's does not help them get younger. For a team that prides itself on great defence, why would they EVER trade for a center that is a horrible help defender? Have you watched the Celtics play D? They are like a green glob that is constantly rotating and helping each other. How do you suggest they integrate a poor help defender like AB???

                    Comment


                    • vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                      yea but what im saying is real fans DO RECOGNIZE defense...

                      and perkins is only a year older than bargs, so he will continue to get better.

                      i cant remember the last time a game was won due to a big hitting a 3.... but i remember over a hundred times where the game was won because a big defended the paint or grabbed a rebound and didnt allow any second chance points.
                      You missed my point. Let me put it this way, if Perkins was on the Raptors roster last year, would you consider him a top 10 center? I think not. Would we as fans value him more than Bargnani? Maybe, and that's your point which I understand. But the topic is not about what makes a center more valuble, offence or defence. Top 10 centers are on winning teams in which most or all of the players on the team play above average defence. If Bargnani was on Boston and put up the SAME numbers his rank on the list of centers would skyrocket. If Perkins were to be on the Raptors and put up the same numbers, he wouldn't smell the top 20.

                      This is why I find it tough to rank players, especially centers. What I'm saying is, it depends on the team. Dwight Howard (imo) has a terrible post game (it is getting better) but he is surrounded by pure offensive ability (Lewis, Carter, etc.) and scoring is not Orlando's problem, so no one cares. So he is probably atop the list because of his great defence. But the Raptors problem is defence, and Bargnani doesn't provide that well, so he falls drastically.

                      I don't feel it's fair to bash him (this much) when he plays on a team where our best defender is probably a rookie (Davis).

                      Comment


                      • Macc wrote: View Post
                        You missed my point. Let me put it this way, if Perkins was on the Raptors roster last year, would you consider him a top 10 center? I think not. Would we as fans value him more than Bargnani? Maybe, and that's your point which I understand. But the topic is not about what makes a center more valuble, offence or defence. Top 10 centers are on winning teams in which most or all of the players on the team play above average defence. If Bargnani was on Boston and put up the SAME numbers his rank on the list of centers would skyrocket. If Perkins were to be on the Raptors and put up the same numbers, he wouldn't smell the top 20.

                        This is why I find it tough to rank players, especially centers. What I'm saying is, it depends on the team. Dwight Howard (imo) has a terrible post game (it is getting better) but he is surrounded by pure offensive ability (Lewis, Carter, etc.) and scoring is not Orlando's problem, so no one cares. So he is probably atop the list because of his great defence. But the Raptors problem is defence, and Bargnani doesn't provide that well, so he falls drastically.

                        I don't feel it's fair to bash him (this much) when he plays on a team where our best defender is probably a rookie (Davis).
                        Why wouldn't Perkins have been considered a top 10 center if he were on the Raptors? In fact, away from Boston, he'd probably look better because he wouldn't be overshadowed by Garnett and company. If he were on the Raptors, I'm pretty sure their defense would have been a lot better and he would have been responsible for that. Perkins, no matter what team he is on, is an excellent defender and rebounder and pretty good scoring around the basket.
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                        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          Why wouldn't Perkins have been considered a top 10 center if he were on the Raptors? In fact, away from Boston, he'd probably look better because he wouldn't be overshadowed by Garnett and company. If he were on the Raptors, I'm pretty sure their defense would have been a lot better and he would have been responsible for that. Perkins, no matter what team he is on, is an excellent defender and rebounder and pretty good scoring around the basket.
                          Being overshadowed is exactly one of my points. There would be more light on him on the Raptors and as they continue to produce L's we look at Perkins as a player who cannot score on his own and is a liability on offence.

                          He is not pretty good at scoring around the basket, unless he is wide open and gets a perfect pass from Rondo.

                          And one player does not make a poor defence team become a top 5 defence team in the league (especially Perkins). Bringing a player (i.e Garnett) can spark a team with already solid defenders, to play more intense defence. Perkins will not make Calderon a defencive stopper, or make him look anything like that.

                          Plus if we gave Perkins for Bargnani, I'd say we'd be last in defence AND offence.

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                          • Macc wrote: View Post
                            Plus if we gave Perkins for Bargnani, I'd say we'd be last in defence AND offence.
                            That's giving an a lot of credit to Bargnani both offensively and defensively.

                            By your claims if we had Perkins instead of Bargs, our offense would drop from 5th to 30th. Our defense drops from 24th to 30th.

                            Comment


                            • JoePanini wrote: View Post
                              Just something, Bargs had MANY blocks on guards running in for dunks and lay-ups. Just saying.
                              I disagree. I'd say Bargnani was more reliable at getting out of the way of slashers, giving up on plays, and not challenging inside dunks and shots nearly as well or often as a center should than getting "MANY blocks." That is why many players attack him and he gets into foul trouble so often.

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                              • CB4 wrote: View Post
                                I disagree. I'd say Bargnani was more reliable at getting out of the way of slashers, giving up on plays, and not challenging inside dunks and shots nearly as well or often as a center should than getting "MANY blocks." That is why many players attack him and he gets into foul trouble so often.
                                Bargs averaged 1.4 blocks a game. That's more than Horford and Shaq. He also blocked slashers ALOT. And about him getting into foul trouble "often", he only got into foul trouble when he got lazy, giving out stupid fouls. And just to let you know, he averaged 2.7 fouls in 35 minutes. Go check how other centers managed.

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