View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3141
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Tough loss. They played. They played hard. They played brilliant at times. They played stunned at times. They lost. Sound familiar?

    I wonder if JT is reading the RR forums. Or does having another C on the roster allow you to send a message to Bargnani - who unfortunately didn't get it. Even Jack was going on about playing both sides of the ball. OT, Bogut abused Bargs. I'm far from a Bargnani hater but at the same time - come on!

    DD rough night at the office. He plays and doesn't quit. One has to respect that. Given the progress he has made playing O this year, I think he'll get it on D at some point - it may be not this year but it will come. He has a willingness to learn and is clearly a hard worker. Maybe I'm sipping some Kool-Aid but he has really grown on me (sorry about the thread questioning you in November, DeMar).

    Amir played very well. One thing I noticed though was he played awful on the pick and roll - no hedge, no switch, just hang back and give easy looks for the guard with the ball or watch Ilyasova hit jumper after jumper. Oh well. In reality he was the best Raptor tonight. After watching plays like those, and Raptors in general make elementary mistakes on defense, I would question the teaching strategies of the coaches or the listening and learning skills of the players. *EDIT* Not enough credit given to Amir. He played a great offensive game. Outside of the screen issue he was solid. Great game.

    Calderon played big minutes again - 41. Given the fact Bayless generally performs when given minutes, I think he is being shopped - just my opinion.

    Ajinca had a good showing in the 1st half, dreadful second. A lot of jumpers for a 7'2" guy. But there is nothing to lose and everything to gain with him.

    One more ball for the lottery...
    Ajinca took 5 jumpers... how is that a lot? Especially considering hit hit 4 of them.

  2. #3142
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Ajinca took 5 jumpers... how is that a lot? Especially considering hit hit 4 of them.
    Actually he took 4 - made 3. One offensive rebound, putback.

    We already have a 7 foot shooting big man. I'd like to see one 7 footer on the Raps doing the dirty work inside.

    The fact he hit it doesn't mean anything. It is like the guy who pulls up for a 3 on a 3 on 1 fast break. If he makes it - oooooooh! - if he misses, you idiot!

  3. #3143
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Oh, please! Let's not blame Bargnani. Let's blame the coach and the system. The first quarter for Bargnani was possibly the worst defensive quarter I have ever seen from a big man. No exaggeration because most big men who play that poorly on defense wouldn't last 10 seconds. Slightly better in the second half, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the system or the coaching. Did you see how Milwaukee kept trying to isolate Bargnani on defense and go at him. They would draw Amir out to the weakside and force Bargnani to be the defender. That's EXACTLY what I keep talking about. If Dwight Howard was on the floor, teams would STILL do that.

    P.S. There were too many poor Bargnani defensive possessions to name.
    I wonder how much Kool-Aid is left by the end of the season? Seems like some people are gulping it by the gallons. A "Fire Triano" thread was started. I'm scratching my head. His benching in the first half spoke volumes. Ooh, let's continue to rave about his offence shall we? Tonight's game will be pretty ugly for AB7. I know he won't be dealing with Love directly but it will be handful nonetheless.

    PS> Darko should have a great one tonight as well.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  4. #3144
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Actually he took 4 - made 3. One offensive rebound, putback.

    We already have a 7 foot shooting big man. I'd like to see one 7 footer on the Raps doing the dirty work inside.

    The fact he hit it doesn't mean anything. It is like the guy who pulls up for a 3 on a 3 on 1 fast break. If he makes it - oooooooh! - if he misses, you idiot!
    Nope, he took 5... and he only played 12 min and this is a new system for him. You can't expect him to have a lot of rebounds.

    Alexis Ajinca 10 PT 4-5 FG 2-2 FT 0-0 3P 2/1 RB 0 AS 1 BL 0 ST 2 TO 2 PF 12 MN

  5. #3145
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Nope, he took 5... and he only played 12 min and this is a new system for him. You can't expect him to have a lot of rebounds.
    He took 5 shots.
    4 were jump shots.
    He made 3 jump shots.
    He had one offensive rebound and put back which is counted as a shot.

    New system affects rebounding? Please. What is Bargnani's excuse? He's been playing the system for years. Rebounding is get a man on your back and go get the ball. Some guys are better than others at knowing where the ball would come off the rim by watching the flight in the air. The bottom line is you work you ass off and go get it.

  6. #3146
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    With Amir, Bayless, and more importantly Davis and DD continued maturation, plus (please Jeeezuz!) a star draft pick, Bargnani will no longer be the face of the franchise and the 'go to guy'. He is a talent, no question, but in the first quarter and OT Bogut exploited his flaws and, in combination with some questionable coaching, that cost the game.

    With that said, keep in mind the game Bargnani had against the NYK. It is all about match ups and the match up vs MIL did not favour Bargnani. Unfortunately, Bargnani cannot be and will not be a franchise player or best player on the team moving forward. The game has two sides to the ball and a dominant C (or sometimes even Speights) exposes him.

    Once people come to grips with with Bargnani's game and the roster matures and adds talent, he should become more appreciated for what he can do versus what he can't. There are games when he brings the whole package and he is truly a pleasure to watch. Unfortuantely those nights are not consistent. When the nights come around where he isn't putting it all together, it will be good to have the option to sit him because the roster will have players ready to step in.

    There are still pieces to this puzzle missing and it would be a shame to toss Bargnani before the puzzle is complete.

  7. #3147
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Why has nobody mentioned the good job Andrea did when he switched out on Delfino a few times, or how when Bogut scored on him in overtime not one player even showed a double team? How about how terrible Amir was on the perimeter fouling Ilyasova on a three pointer, falling for shot fake after shot fake and giving up numerous blow-bys.

    We all know Andrea has work to do on defense, but we can't blame every loss on him alone, we have major deficiencies all over the floor.

  8. #3148
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    If "if's" and "but's" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

  9. #3149
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    Default He needs to pull a Bosh...in a good way

    Long time listener, first time caller. I am ALMOST a very tentative, convert to the trade Bargnani camp. What has gotten me recently is that he just doesn't seem to be trying. Last year there seemed to be more games where he was really nutting up on defense, playing strong man to man D. In fact, it was readily acknowledged that despite being a poor help defender and a disinterested rebounder, he was an above average man to man defender, even at the 5. This year, particularly in the last month, he's getting abused in one v one situations, and the effort just doesn't seem to be there.

    I think he has to be hurting. And because of this, I would hesitate to unload someone with his offensive talent UNLESS you can get something significant back. If we can actually sell high and get someone who fits the rest of the team better, that is great. History, however, would say that that rarely happens.

    What I want to see is Bargnani told by the club that he is not going back to Italy this off-season. I want him told that he is going to do what Chris Bosh did, hole up in a gym, and train his ass off all summer. He is going to get strong, period. He can score, but imagine Bargnani without nagging injuries and with an extra 10 to 20 pounds of muscle.

    If he can't commit to coming back next fall as a physical beast, then at that point I say trade him.

  10. #3150
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Ajinca was good last night but hsa alot to learn, if you watch him he turn his back to the play far to often and is lost on the court but he is still very new and those mistakes are excusable at this point. If he gains another 10 lbs and learns the game abit more i tinhk he can be a pretty decent player ifor us next year and so on. Id be interested to see him later in the season when he can run for extended minutes.

  11. #3151
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    They would draw Amir out to the weakside and force Bargnani to be the defender. That's EXACTLY what I keep talking about. If Dwight Howard was on the floor, teams would STILL do that.

    .
    LOOOOLL, They did not need to draw Amir to any side. They just put Ilyasova on him to spank him all night long and that is your good defender with his positive impact

    Check out minute 5 of the 4th quarter where Ilyasova sends Amir flying toward Raptor Bench with a slight head fake to get an easy layup under the basket!!

    But again, you do not see that or how DD was beaten by his man all the time and ... because all you care about is Bashing AB.

    Our defensive system is flawed and this is why you see guys like Jack and Beli who sucked in defense last year are able to get solid minutes in one of the best defensive teams in the NBA now.

    Our system is flawed, our players are not complementry to each other and hence they all get expose, some more than others.

  12. #3152
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Why has nobody mentioned the good job Andrea did when he switched out on Delfino a few times, or how when Bogut scored on him in overtime not one player even showed a double team? How about how terrible Amir was on the perimeter fouling Ilyasova on a three pointer, falling for shot fake after shot fake and giving up numerous blow-bys.

    We all know Andrea has work to do on defense, but we can't blame every loss on him alone, we have major deficiencies all over the floor.
    Nicely Said .
    This is because some fans here have personal problems with AB.

    For all hose delusional fans who say Amir is better player than AB because he grabs few more rebound and ...
    Put AB and Amir on a trading block and see which one has more return value . You can not even compare the 2 together !!

  13. #3153
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    You're the delusional one, Raptor4ever.

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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    You're the delusional one, Raptor4ever.
    LOOOLL, Righttttttttttt.

    Our defensive system is great and comparable to the best in the league.
    AB is the ONLY problem that this team has and with his departure we will be as good as celtics in defence.
    Amir Johnson has unlimited potential and is the 2nd comming of Pippen.
    BC has gathered a young with talent potentials that can only be matched by OKC.
    This team is on its way to a 50 win season in year or two if ONLY AB and Jose are traded away and

    the last but not the least:

    Bayless is an ALL-STAR PG that the future of Raptors should be build around.

    ......... No, My friend WhatWhat, you are a delusional One.

    Are you one of those who voted on the begining of the season that Raptors will make the Play Offs

  15. #3155
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Why has nobody mentioned the good job Andrea did when he switched out on Delfino a few times, or how when Bogut scored on him in overtime not one player even showed a double team? How about how terrible Amir was on the perimeter fouling Ilyasova on a three pointer, falling for shot fake after shot fake and giving up numerous blow-bys.

    We all know Andrea has work to do on defense, but we can't blame every loss on him alone, we have major deficiencies all over the floor.
    Yes, Amir made an incredibly stupid move by fouling the three point shooter, and made a couple of other mental errors, as well. Why don't we jump on Amir? Well, maybe because he was the best player on the court for the Raptors on both ends for the majority of the game. It wasn't just the 24 points. It was the 12 rebounds and the overall good defense he played. It was because he put up a consistent effort every minute he was on the floor.

    Jeez!

    No player has a perfect game, but one of the more common statements for people trying to defend Bargnani often seems to be, "Well, look at the play this guy did! That was bad, too!". No player on the Raptors is extraordinarily good, and sometimes shots fall and sometimes they don't, but Bargnani was absolutely horrible last night and his play was completely indefensible.

    Am I blaming him alone? Obviously not. The team is simply not very good, so they're going to struggle to win ANY game, but did you even watch him in the first quarter? I was actually shocked by what I saw from him on the defensive end, and I obviously expect bad defense from him. And he wasn't all that much better for the rest of the game.
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  16. #3156
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    LOOOOLL, They did not need to draw Amir to any side. They just put Ilyasova on him to spank him all night long and that is your good defender with his positive impact

    Check out minute 5 of the 4th quarter where Ilyasova sends Amir flying toward Raptor Bench with a slight head fake to get an easy layup under the basket!!

    But again, you do not see that or how DD was beaten by his man all the time and ... because all you care about is Bashing AB.

    Our defensive system is flawed and this is why you see guys like Jack and Beli who sucked in defense last year are able to get solid minutes in one of the best defensive teams in the NBA now.

    Our system is flawed, our players are not complementry to each other and hence they all get expose, some more than others.
    So are you honestly saying that Bargnani played at least as well on defense as Amir, last night? Or are you just trying to distract everyone?

    No one played stellar defense last night, but Amir and DeRozan, as well most of the other Raptor players at least put up a good effort for most of the game. In the first quarter, there were three defensive plays in a row that I couldn't believe. The first one, Bargnani literally turned his back on a man driving to the basket, when he was the closest guy to help. The next play, Bogut actually boxes him out to get an offensive board, and the next play, Bargnani is standing at the foul line while Bogut, his man and with no one around, gets a pass and lays it up.

    You guys think I actually look for bad plays that Bargnani does, but I don't. I just watch the game and see them.

    And I was one of the people last year that was saying over and over that Belinelli was one of the better defenders for the Raptors, and was sorry to see him go, so it doesn't surprise me in the least that he's getting lots of minutes with the Hornets. Actually, at one point I suggested starting him for the rest of the season.
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  17. #3157
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    LOOOLL, Right. Our defensive system is great and comparable to the best in the league.
    AB is the ONLY problem that this team has and with his departure we will be as good as celtics in defence.

    Amir Johnson has unlimited potential and is the 2nd comming of Pippen.
    BC has gathered a young with talent potentials that can only be matched by OKC.

    This team is on its way to a 50 win season in year or two if ONLY AB and Jose are traded away and the last but not the least:

    Bayless is an ALL-STAR PG that the future of Raptors should be build around.

    ......... No, My friend WhatWhat, you are a delusional fan , Are you one of those who voted on the begining of the season that Raptors will make the Play Offs
    No, our the defense is the worst in the league again, and Bargnani and Calderon are the primary reasons for it. (Moreso Calderon last year, Bargnani by a mile this year.)

    Amir is a better player than Bargnani, because he's not a complete liability on the defensive end. And without a post move, as some people are ridiculously saying, he put up more points than Bargnani on less than half the shots, and re-aggravated his back while doing it, and got 4 times as many boards. Ilyasova lit him up, but unlike Bargnani, that often isn't the case.

    If AB and Jose are moved, the team would start playing the game the right way again, like in the beginning of the season, and have passable defense again.

    Bayless will not be an All-Star, I have never said or thought that. He's can be our starting PG though. A good starting PG, but for whatever reason, few people are willing to throw him into the fire to confirm it. I pretty sure that I'm in the minority regarding Bayless, but I already think that he should be starting over Calderon and that we should be evaluating him while he's doing so. So then maybe we could look off Irving (whom we may even have an high enough pick for), and draft T.Jones or even someone like Valanciunas instead.

    I never thought that they make the playoffs going into the season. I pegged them at like 27 wins.

    If you were a true fan of Bargnani, you wouldn't be blaming other people and the system for his shitty play, you'd be calling him out like most of us are, because quite frankly he's much, much better than this.

  18. #3158
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Amir is a better player than Bargnani And without a post move, as some people are ridiculously saying, he put up more points than Bargnani on less than half the shots,
    .
    LOOOL, and how many games did that happen ??

    As I said, I am willing to bet anything that almost 95% of thr GM's in this league rather have AB and his contract over Amir and his contract. The fact that you make this argument that Amir is a better player than AB just further proves my points.

  19. #3159
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    So are you honestly saying that Bargnani played at least as well on defense as Amir, last night? Or are you just trying to distract everyone?
    LOOOL, no, I think AB has problems on defence and they are shown more because of the system that is in place.

    At the same time, I do think that Amir was not that great on defence as well last night and Ilyasova got everything that he wanted all night long, be it under the basket, 15 feet from the basket or at 3 point line from Amir.

    Our teams's problem is not one or two player and great example are Beli and Jack that just 4 month ago people here thought they could not play defence worth a Lick.

    Amir Jonhson is a decent player but he is no where close to the class of AB especially on the offence. The kid is only 23 but he has been in the league for 5 years without perfecting even ONE Post move !!! Does that sound like this is his ceiling !!

  20. #3160
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    Default Amir

    I like Amir. He's only 23 and is showing significant growth. He does have post moves, are you kidding saying he doesn't? He's hitting spot-up jumpers and converting free-throws. I expect he'll consistently put up at least 12/8 for the next couple years, maybe even more.

    But you know what? Even when he has a good game like last night I never get the sense that he IMPACTS the game. Double teams don't (and likely never will) come his way, defenses don't breakdown because of him, momentum doesn't shift because of him. I think his ceiling isn't very far away. Comparisons between him and Andrea, I think, are moot because Bargnani can change the game (and no rebuttals - "yeah, change it for the worse", please) - it's comparing apples and oranges. However, Amir clearly should be a part of the team going forward. He is not that far away from being a legitimate starting PF and, even if his development stagnates where it is, he'll be a solid first big off the bench (once Davis develops into a starter). Whether Bargnani should be part of the team moving forward is an entirely different question than whether he's a better player than Amir Johnson.

    Oh, and in terms of comparing the two of them w/r/t their defense last night, I would say Amir TRIED alot harder than Bargnani, but he certainly wasn't any more successful (with the exception of a couple of bright spots towards the end). Ed Davis already seems to have better defensive instincts and habits than Amir.

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