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  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Defense can be taught, but the foundations of it usually begin early, and they don't appear to be there with Bargnani. And to learn good defense takes years. We're now on year five.
    lol in all seriousness his help defense is terrible, one on one he is an average defender in my opinion. the biggest liability on defense is jose. his angles and spacing are terrible. picking up rondo 2 feet outside the three point line, when you know a. he makes his living on the drive and b. he cant and wont shoot anything outside a free throw line jumper and c. you dont have any hope of keeping up with his foot speed. the raptor guards and wings are notoriously bad at this, some just are athletic enough to hide it. getting beat and forcing rotations exposes how bad bargs is at help defense and takes him away from the rim, leaving him not contesting shots and pulling him out of rebounding position. he has to get better at making up his mind and being aware of whats going on around him and anticipating whats going to happen next and committing to it.

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    • _cp_ wrote: View Post
      lol in all seriousness his help defense is terrible, one on one he is an average defender in my opinion. the biggest liability on defense is jose. his angles and spacing are terrible. picking up rondo 2 feet outside the three point line, when you know a. he makes his living on the drive and b. he cant and wont shoot anything outside a free throw line jumper and c. you dont have any hope of keeping up with his foot speed. the raptor guards and wings are notoriously bad at this, some just are athletic enough to hide it. getting beat and forcing rotations exposes how bad bargs is at help defense and takes him away from the rim, leaving him not contesting shots and pulling him out of rebounding position. he has to get better at making up his mind and being aware of whats going on around him and anticipating whats going to happen next and committing to it.
      Bargnani's help defense is terrible, but his one on one defense is overrated. He's inconsistently fine against big, back to the basket players who can't put the ball on the floor. Bargnani best attribute is that he doesn't go for fakes and is long. If a player faces him up, he's at an immediate disadvantage because he doesn't move his feet well.

      Calderon isn't a great defender, but he's improved this season enough that's he's not the liability he used to be.

      The reason that Bargnani is the main problem is because he's a big man with very poor defensive skills. You simply can't hide that like you can hide perimeter players who are subpar defensive players. No matter how good your perimeter players are defensively, they're going to get beaten, whether on isolations or pick and rolls. You simply can't hide bigs defensively. Phoenix didn't get destroyed by the Lakers on offensive because of Steve Nash's defensive deficiencies. They got killed because Amare is simply a poor defensive player. The big man is the last line of defense, whether you play PF or center.

      Look at the teams on the bottom and the teams at the top of defensive field goal percentage...
      http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...oalPctOpponent
      Without question, the majority of the teams that are near the bottom have poor defensive big men and the teams at the top have good defensive big men. Even Oklahoma, who have great perimeter defenders, can't get past the fact that they have Nenad Krstic and Jeff Green (who plays out of position) as their starting frontcourt. Even when Serge Ibaka starts, it doesn't hide the fact that Kristic isn't a good defensive player.
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      • @Tim W. good points, all of them, i'm not going to argue bargs defensive short comings because they are there for all to see. i still think he isnt quite as bad as you think though.

        and this is a matter of personal opion, from what ive experience and watched etc if you get beat from the outside, regardless of how good your interior defenders are, its an odd man situation. if nobody steps up its a jumper, and if your posts steps up its a dump off or drive for two. if your wings collapse its a kick out for a 3 or a drive or etc. getting beat causes your defense to shift and when it does lanes open up and people get open. good defensive teams can talk rotate quick and recover as best they can. all of this can be avoided though if you can keep you man in front of you on the outside. personally i think that's what hurts us more. watch the celts game tonight and i'll do the same, we can compare notes.

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        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
          Bargnani helps the team more ON OFFENSE. He hurts the team on defense and on the boards. Darko doesn't have Bargnani's offensive abilities, but I certainly wouldn't say he doesn't help the team as much or more than Bargnani. Personally, I'd like to watch Darko a little more, but if he gives you 15 ppg (on decent shooting), 8-9 rpg and 2.5 bpg while playing good defense, that's better than 25 ppg, but poor rebounding and defense. The issue with Darko is that he was shooting so poorly in 10 of the first 11 games, he was a liability on the offensive end. In the games since then he hasn't been. It's not how good a player is in one aspect, it's how much a liability he is in others.

          By the way, I just want to point out to some others that we have been able to have a discussion where we disagree, yet no one is insulting the other person. Amazing how that can work, isn't it?
          But the only reason Milicic is able to put up those numbers is Kevin Love. He needs a guy to space the floor to play well, he stays in the paint and is actually pretty good there. I remember when he played in the Euroleague he had silky post moves. But Milicic's rebounding is very good, his shot blocking is incredible. I would not be surprised to see him surpass Howard with BPG this year. Milicic is also a good candidate for MIP, so if there is a reason to trade for him I would say that it is to get the Raptors an award. But I wouldn't consider this trade, unless they give us 2011 and 2012 first round picks or Kevin Love. Maybe they will be crazy enough, our 1st round pick and Bargnani for Milicic and Love. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

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          • Darko's recent performance is an aberration.
            Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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            • JoePanini wrote: View Post
              But the only reason Milicic is able to put up those numbers is Kevin Love. He needs a guy to space the floor to play well, he stays in the paint and is actually pretty good there. I remember when he played in the Euroleague he had silky post moves. But Milicic's rebounding is very good, his shot blocking is incredible. I would not be surprised to see him surpass Howard with BPG this year. Milicic is also a good candidate for MIP, so if there is a reason to trade for him I would say that it is to get the Raptors an award. But I wouldn't consider this trade, unless they give us 2011 and 2012 first round picks or Kevin Love. Maybe they will be crazy enough, our 1st round pick and Bargnani for Milicic and Love. I'd do that in a heartbeat.
              Keep dreaming, that isn't going to happen.

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              • RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
                Keep dreaming, that isn't going to happen.
                KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHN!! I bet if we sign a PG from free-agency, is Brevin Knight still available? Then we package him in, tell Kahn Bargnani has PG ball-handling skills then he'd probably give us a shit load of picks too

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                • Bargnani's language barrier advantage

                  I didn't catch the game last night because I live overseas and have for several years. One thing I have been hearing, from this past game against the Celts and the previous one, is Bargnani's cool in the face of KG's pressure.

                  Now part of this is simple basketball related. Bargs just has confidence in his game these days.

                  But I think language might play a part. Having lived in Germany for 2 years I speak German about as well as Bargs speaks English (more or less). I can understand people on the street. But if I am annoyed I can block out the German language much easier than English. Its a great advantage in crowds and at bars.

                  Perhaps Bargs can do the same a bit with KG and the ceaseless stream of garbage spewing from his maw. It also might be why freaks out on Euro guys... because they can ignore him to the point that he pushes things too far.

                  Not a particularly relevant topic... but its Saturday. Any people here have a similar experience?

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                  • Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
                    I didn't catch the game last night because I live overseas and have for several years. One thing I have been hearing, from this past game against the Celts and the previous one, is Bargnani's cool in the face of KG's pressure.

                    Now part of this is simple basketball related. Bargs just has confidence in his game these days.

                    But I think language might play a part. Having lived in Germany for 2 years I speak German about as well as Bargs speaks English (more or less). I can understand people on the street. But if I am annoyed I can block out the German language much easier than English. Its a great advantage in crowds and at bars.

                    Perhaps Bargs can do the same a bit with KG and the ceaseless stream of garbage spewing from his maw. It also might be why freaks out on Euro guys... because they can ignore him to the point that he pushes things too far.

                    Not a particularly relevant topic... but its Saturday. Any people here have a similar experience?
                    Bargnani has been around Amir for over a season now. Johnson speaks the same language as KG.

                    Whether Bargnani can shut out English trash talking I think is dependent on whether he thinks in English when in North America or still thinks in Italian and then translates what he hears into English.

                    It is a lot easier to shut out another language when you have to translate what you are hearing rather than if you think in that language.
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                    • Buddafan, I can tell that you don't speak another language. When you become fluent in a second language you stop noticing the transition between languages. you don't translate it into your language anymore, you just understand it. for example, when Bargs hears apple, he doesn't translate it into italian, he just thinks of the juicy red fruit.
                      Last edited by albertan_10; Sat Nov 27, 2010, 12:27 PM.

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                      • It really depends how fluent he is. After 5 years of speaking English I think he probably would understand what people are telling him. I speak Italian, English, French, Spanish and Cantonese fluently, so if someone starts insulting me in any of those languages I would understand. But in languages like German and Romanian which I'm currently learning, I would probably convert it to Italian or English before fully understanding what someone is telling me.

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                        • I agree that Bargs probably thinks in English after 5 years in Canada. I guess I wonder if the words have the same effect. For instance I speak a bit of Russian as well. If someone calls me a suka (сука), which basically means bitch but about 20 times worse, I can brush that off. But say that to someone who grew up in Moscow and you'll get yer ass beat.

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                          • ... there is also this...

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                            • Too early to tell on how good Darko really is but if he keeps playing like that (or even somewhat worse) then I'd trade Bargs for him in a heartbeat. Bargs brings nothing to the table other than scoring, whereas Darko can do a number of things.
                              Last edited by nubreed000; Sat Nov 27, 2010, 02:10 PM.

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                              • Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
                                ... there is also this...
                                That's sure an international language that everyone can listen to or watch.

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