View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3261
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't have the time or desire to find any links, but I recall several times when Colangelo admitted making mistakes. Much more important, though, is that he generally realizes he has made a mistake and does what he can to correct it.
    can you describe one, like what mistake was he talking about ?

  2. #3262
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    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    can you describe one, like what mistake was he talking about ?
    He admitted that trading for O'Neal was a mistake, although I don't think it was as much a mistake as a gamble that didn't pay off. I also recall him admitting that signing Turkoglu was a mistake because he didn't fit in with the team. He heaped plenty of blame on Turkoglu, and rightfully so, but I'm pretty sure I remember him admitting that signing him was probably a mistake.

    Besides, it doesn't really matter what he admits to the press. I think far too much is written about what coaches, GMs and players say. It's why, for the most part, I don't pay attention to that. What matter is what they do, and Colangelo has consistently tried to rectify his mistakes.
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  3. #3263
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    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    i have seen almost every BC interview, and not once has he admitted anything.

    you're saying many times bc has admitted mistakes, can you provide a link or even just the date of any of them ?

    even for turk, bc said turk was out of shape and it was turk's fault it didnt work out in t.o.

    for bosh, bc said bosh checked out, which puts the blame on bosh.

    name one time, bc has admitted anything... it's always someone else's fault.
    Nicely Said.

  4. #3264
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Clearly players who don't play enough minutes to qualify for a stat don't play enough minutes for a reason. Im sure if coaches valued rebounds as much as all you people around here seem to value them, then all these so called underqualfied centres with there unique and amazing rebounding abilities would get more floor time. Fortunatly, coaches realize rebounding is just one aspect of the game. With the exception of a few players such a Reggie Evans and Kevin Love most high rebound players are the result of players being at the right place to collect a rebound off a missed shot, which doesn't require much skill if u ask me. Now if there was a stat which seperated earned rebounds from unearned rebounds then I would think that rebounding stat would be more useful, furthermore if there was a stat for forced rebound which gives a player who is positioned inside the paint credit for forcing a missed shot, because in all likelyhood a player who forces a miss from this position is at a huge disadvante of actually getting the rebound himself, however one of his teams get rewarded for the freebies on the misses. You people are too caught up in mainstream stats, thankfully coaches see things from a different persepective.


    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    What you've done is simply looked at rpg, which doesn't take into consideration actual rebounding rate. Why? Probably because looking at rebounding rate hurts your argument. As WhatWhat has already detailed, Bargnani rebounds at a rate that is shockingly bad. The problem is if you simply look at his basic stats, it's not absolutely horrible (close, but not quite). The thing is that Bargnani plays 36 mpg because he plays on a team that has very little talent, overvalues his scoring and doesn't make him accountable for poor defensive play by sitting him, so he ends up playing 35 minutes per game. WHile Bargnani is the 17th highest rebounding center in rpg, none of the centers who played enough minutes to qualify played even 25 minutes per game. When you look at rebounds per 48 minutes, Bargnani is dead last in the league for centers who qualified.

  5. #3265
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    Yes, there are usually very good reasons why players don't play enough minutes. And, quite frankly, there are very good reasons why Bargnani should not be playing as many minutes as he does. The biggest reason he does get 35 mpg, however, instead of 25, is that he plays on a team with very little talent, and a coach who doesn't hold him accountable for bad defense and rebounding by sitting him more. Stick Bargnani on a better team, and his minutes would go down. Stick Bargnani on a good team, and his minutes go way down.

    Yes, most fans get way too caught up in general stats, but the problem is that advanced stats make Bargnani look even worse. His scoring actually doesn't make him as good an offensive player as many think, and his defense may actually be worse that most people think. His rebounding, as well, is actually probably worse than most people realize.
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  6. #3266
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    You don't think Bargs is a bad rebounder huh? Then I have a challenge for you: next time you watch a Raptors game, just keep your eyes on him the entire game. Ignore everything going on except what he's doing and then come back here and tell me he's not a bad rebounder.

  7. #3267
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Nicely Said.
    What on earth does this have to do with Bargnani?

    Your whole defense of Bargnani seems to be that Colangelo is a bad GM. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
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  8. #3268
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    You don't think Bargs is a bad rebounder huh? Then I have a challenge for you: next time you watch a Raptors game, just keep your eyes on him the entire game. Ignore everything going on except what he's doing and then come back here and tell me he's not a bad rebounder.
    Oh, come on. Just because he made a bad argument, doesn't mean you have to punish the guy.
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  9. #3269
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    You don't think Bargs is a bad rebounder huh? Then I have a challenge for you: next time you watch a Raptors game, just keep your eyes on him the entire game. Ignore everything going on except what he's doing and then come back here and tell me he's not a bad rebounder.
    No, No, No. I would try to avoid that if I'm supporting him, not a very wise decision. Side effects of doing so includes depression, anxiety of posting, and possible dislike of the player. You've been warned

  10. #3270
    Raptors Republic Starter TheR3dMenace's Avatar
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    Raps fans always talk about tanking for a better draft pick, but the draft is a total crap-shoot. And as this season is indicative of, Raps fans are way tool reactionary to handle a rebuilding process without flying off the handle over a string of bad games.

  11. #3271
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know if he's pretty close to his ceiling or not, but what more does he need to develop in order to be a starter on a good team? He can score, rebound and defend. The ONLY thing he needs to really do is cut down on the fouls, which he has this year. I can easily see Amir being the starter on a lot of contenders.
    I disagree. He's very talented, and is a pretty good defender. But he would only be a sixth man at most, on a contender. Just like Bargnani would be a sixth man at most on a contender. Amir looks a lot better than he is because he plays next to horrid defenders. But next to guys like Lamar Odom, he is half decent. I don't see him starting over guys like Jeff Green, Paul Millsap, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Brandon Bass, Carlos Boozer etc... But he would definitely be a player contenders want off the bench, energetic and good defender.

    I think teams would really like Amir, and I don't see us getting much with trading Bargnani alone. So, maybe including a guy like Amir, expiring of Reggie and Miami's pick. But I still don't see what we could get back for Bargnani. I think Bargnani is far more valuable than anything we could get. Plus, the best case scenario would be that in a couple years (or even next year, Kanter) we get a good center, which can start allowing Bargnani to be a spark off the bench. Having a guy like Bargnani off the bench, could be incredible and cause huge match up problems. Just that now we have no one that can start in his place.

  12. #3272
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    I don't think the rebounding is the main issue. We have rebounders on the team, we are in the middle of the pack in the rankings for rebounding. The issue is his defense, if he defended, he wouldn't be a liability, even with his rebounding. Look at Evans, who grabbed 12 rebounds a game, but was still a liability, because he didn't play decent defense. If Bargnani played defense, I wouldn't care if he grabbed 3 rebounds a game, but he doesn't.

  13. #3273
    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    I don't think the rebounding is the main issue. We have rebounders on the team, we are in the middle of the pack in the rankings for rebounding. The issue is his defense, if he defended, he wouldn't be a liability, even with his rebounding. Look at Evans, who grabbed 12 rebounds a game, but was still a liability, because he didn't play decent defense. If Bargnani played defense, I wouldn't care if he grabbed 3 rebounds a game, but he doesn't.
    Yea I completely disagree, its not like his one on one defence is bad, its his team defence, but then again, most of the players on this team suck at team defence. So really the only problem most Raptor fans have with Bargnani is his terrible, terrible rebounding numbers. Can you explain to me why is Kevin Love; a shorter, less athletic player, is getting ALMOST as much offensive rebounds as Andrea's total per game?? I mean other than the fact that he's lazy, a claim he made himself.

  14. #3274
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    Quote matt wrote: View Post
    Yea I completely disagree, its not like his one on one defence is bad, its his team defence, but then again, most of the players on this team suck at team defence. So really the only problem most Raptor fans have with Bargnani is his terrible, terrible rebounding numbers. Can you explain to me why is Kevin Love; a shorter, less athletic player, is getting ALMOST as much offensive rebounds as Andrea's total per game?? I mean other than the fact that he's lazy, a claim he made himself.
    Because he knows how to time his rebounds, thus being a good rebounder. You don't only need to be athletic to be a good rebounder. You need instinct, hops, effort and a timing. Now, Bargnani has none of those, and he is not very athletic either.

    And his one on one defense is pretty bad, I don't know how many times players have just gone by him. And opposing centers keep on lighting up on him. His post D is decent, but post D alone can't make him a decent defender. DeRozan and Bargnani are clearly the worst defenders on the team, but DeRozan has had moments where he has defended with grit, Bargnani not so much.

    Anyways, comparing Andrea with Love is pretty unfair. It's like comparing DeRozan to Carter. Love is a really good player who puts in a lot of effort, more than most players. Rebounds incredibly, also shoots very well.

    Also, although there are quite a few times where he missed important rebounds, him rebounding isn't really needed. We have guys like Johnson, Davis, Dorsey, Kleiza and when healthy Evans to rebound. His defense is what is killing us.

  15. #3275
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    Even if you are rebuilding, you should not be blown out by 10-win teams like the Minnesota Timberwolves lol.
    So if I am to understand correctly, no team should lose to another team who has 3 or more less wins. So it is impossible for ORL to blow out BOS or ATL to blow out MIA? One sh!t team got spanked by another sh!t team.

  16. #3276
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    Quote matt wrote: View Post
    Yea I completely disagree, its not like his one on one defence is bad, its his team defence, but then again, most of the players on this team suck at team defence. So really the only problem most Raptor fans have with Bargnani is his terrible, terrible rebounding numbers. Can you explain to me why is Kevin Love; a shorter, less athletic player, is getting ALMOST as much offensive rebounds as Andrea's total per game?? I mean other than the fact that he's lazy, a claim he made himself.
    All this Kevin Love "LOVE"
    Where is Minie in the standings...
    Speaking of numbers...Bosh had some pretty good numbers !!!and how did that work for us?
    Regie is one heck of a rebounder,but has no offensive game.
    I agree with the sentiment that Bargs must give up some minutes,give them to Davis,or french fries...or Alibi
    I think BC'S plan of tanking is working !!!!
    Kyrie baby....as much as I like the speedy guard from Duke,we will have to take the best player available...I would love Sullinger ,lacking in size,but one tough SOB.
    Problem,outside of a few in the top 5 ,I cant see anybody coming and having an immediate impact on out team.
    I know,I dont want any more PROJECTS.
    Can we scoop Perkins from the Celtics,now there is one mean mother....after this season they might to visit a youth campaign....hoping lol.
    Ping Pong Balls,boys and girls.

  17. #3277
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Dude, 4.2 rebounds is a lot! It translates to 4 possessions which means anywhere from 4-6 points if you assume 50% shooting. That's a lot! Here's a "leaderboard" comparison you might find interesting: Five points separate the 15th and 1st ranked defensive teams in the league right now (talking points per 100 possessions here). If the Raptors were to save these five points from being scored, they'd be an average defensive team instead of second-worst.
    Game. Set. Match.

  18. #3278
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Now if there was a stat which seperated earned rebounds from unearned rebounds then I would think that rebounding stat would be more useful...
    It would. Be careful what you wish for though. I reviewed the last game with League Pass. Bargnani had 3 rebounds - first one was tipped by Amir Johnson back to beyond the three point area, right into Bargnani's hands. The second was a defensive board where Love had better position, but it went beyond his reach. The third was a result of Bargnani having his shot blocked and caught it again (counts as an offensive rebound).

  19. #3279
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    You don't think Bargs is a bad rebounder huh? Then I have a challenge for you: next time you watch a Raptors game, just keep your eyes on him the entire game. Ignore everything going on except what he's doing and then come back here and tell me he's not a bad rebounder.
    I watched him intently against Memphis. He was often boxed out by the man he's guarding. He stands around too much and lets his man establish in the deep post for the most part and lets his man get the ball. It's like this - Bargs thinks he can defend the man when HE IS READY. How does he determine when he's ready? Well, he let's his man get the ball and then he tries to defend. Applying pressure on his man by not letting him in the post position he wants and sometimes "fronting" him are the types of things big me do on a regular basis when guarding their own man down low. He simply doesn't do those things!

    PS> He loves to guard his area by the way and handles switches very poorly. After 5 years, you shouldn't be this lost on defence. He is slow physically and mentally. Lastly, Bargs' next contract will not be in the NBA. Mark my words.
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 09:14 AM.
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  20. #3280
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Plus, the best case scenario would be that in a couple years (or even next year, Kanter) we get a good center, which can start allowing Bargnani to be a spark off the bench. Having a guy like Bargnani off the bench, could be incredible and cause huge match up problems. Just that now we have no one that can start in his place.
    I don't think he would accept a bench role with the raptors. With another team perhaps, but not in Toronto. I do agree with you that he is probably more valuable than anything we can get in return for him, however, 80 cents on the dollar would be okay with me right now.

    I see Sacramento as a team with a high first round pick that might be interested in Bargnani. The draft still is an imperfect science so they might be willing to give up their first round pick for Bargs and a late first round pick (plus whatever filler it takes to make the deal work). Playing him at PF with Cousins at C may accelerate Sac's rebuilding plans significantly. The upside for us is that we may have two top 5 picks. Try to get Irving if he's there, obviously, but if he's not grab your wing of choice and Kanter to play C

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