View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3461
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    It's not that we 'disagree' with his findings; it's more the wording, or intent of the article. In my opinion.

    If he is saying 'These guys should play in LA, and not the team that is selected by fans and coaches', then I do disagree with him wholeheartedly.

    If he is simply saying 'These guys are the "All-Stars" of their teams and contribute the majority of that teams Stats in such and such catergories. And by "percentage" contribute 'more' then Kobe or Dwight.' Then you can't disagree.

    But this essentially rewards Good Players on Bad Teams, and the All-Star game is really about the Best Players on the Best Teams. (and a few popular mediocre players.)
    I think what he means by "All-Star" has nothing to do with who will play in the actual game. (As a statistician he likely abhors the way the All-Star teams are selected.) I think his "All-Stars" in this article are simply the leaders in this statistical method - i.e. "Adjusted +/-"

  2. #3462
    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Well either way you're going down. We're 14th in the east losing 12 straight, when was the last time a team in this position had their best player picked by the coaches? never.

  3. #3463
    Raptors Republic Rookie your mom's Avatar
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    Dre has skills, but is lazy as fuck. He should not be looked at as a part of the teams core if he does not improve soon. End of story.

  4. #3464
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Numbers DO lie. They lie all the time.
    Statistics tell the truth 68% of the time, 4 times in 20.


    "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Mark Twain

  5. #3465
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    Quote DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
    Simmons and Henry Abbott did a podcast last week talking about advanced stats and how flawed they are and how in the game of basketball, you really don't have any measurable way to really tell how a player is.
    They said nothing like that at all. Simmons did say that basketball was much tougher to measure than baseball. But listen to it again, he said he liked many of these and said PER was better than what we had and how much he uses the lineup +/- data. Of course they are not perfect, but Simmons repeated several times on how much better they are now.

    Abbott even said that salary should be dependent more on adjusted +/- type measures.

  6. #3466
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    We need him? We have him and he isn't producing anything other than points. I personally have fits watching this guy play. Please Bill Simmons write a column on the laziest players in the NBA. It is a category a Raptors player (Bargnani) would win by a landslide. The guy is a 7 foot pilon.
    Deadallus

  7. #3467
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Source.

    Whether we like it or not, Bargnani must be scoring at a decent clip for the team to have a chance of winning. (Because he's going to being playing 30 minutes regardless...)
    I was about to debate you when I read the small print. Note: Always read the small print before proceeding.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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  8. #3468
    Raptors Republic Rookie madeupid25's Avatar
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    I read Winston's post earlier today, and it is clear how out of whack some of these advanced stats can be. Anyone who has watched some Raptors games this year can see that Bargnani does not deserve to be mentioned in the all star game conversation. That people around here still speak about him as one of the East's best centres is a joke.

  9. #3469
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    Quote Liston wrote: View Post
    Statistics tell the truth 68% of the time, 4 times in 20.
    What's your margin of error on that?
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  10. #3470
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    This thread makes me laugh. Once I saw Crawford, I closed it.

  11. #3471
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    Bargnani really needs to work on his game. It's not about winning now, we should take advantage. Teach him a lesson. When he doesn't play with energy he should come off, when he doesn't put in effort he should come off. And all this without considering his defense, there were games this year where his defense was still nearly unwatchable, but his effort was still there. Which made the games much easier to watch, and also made us win or keep games close. But lately, he's shown no effort, at all. I'm very disappointed as a Bargnani fan. But he needs to learn, or else his next 5 years of his contract will ruin him, the team and us fans watching.

  12. #3472
    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    multipaul...the epitome of blissful ignorance.
    + infinity.

  13. #3473
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Default Lost in Bosh's Shadow

    Nominally 2010-2011 is Andrea Bargnaniís 5th season in the NBA, but in reality itís his first. Hereís why.

    When Bargnani got drafted Bosh was established as the new face of the franchise. The Raptors were transitioning from the Vince Carter Era and needed to develop a star. Bosh became our perennial All-Star averaging multiple 20+ point seasons. The Raptors offence revolved around him. Nobody questioned this strategy, why should they? The results were undeniable Raptors were winning. For all Boshís glory Andrea was still our #1 pick. There was no optimism; his game hadnít changed much since his rookie year. The same 7 footer launching 3 pointers game after game. Something had to be done. Bargnani caught his first break after Mitchell was fired. Jay Triano was instructed to play Andrea more minutes. With more playing time Andrea started fine tuning other aspects of his game. Andrea had multiple skills; that was never questioned, but under Mitchell he never had the opportunity to use them. When Bargnani finally got the chance to play under Triano, he just wasnít prepared to use those skills. With renewed confidence Andrea started to develope other aspects of his game. The dribble drive, the pump fake and the step back were all options he had, but never perfected. Under Mitchell he wasnít allowed to play through his mistakes, which prolonged his indecisiveness. He didnít know when to shoot or when to drive, which resulted in turnovers. Although Bargnani saw his minuteís spike, this was Boshís team. You can practice moves all year, but if you donít get in game repetition forget about it. Bargnaniís minutes were increasing but his game remained stagnant. You knew it had to be a 3 point attempt or an indecisive dribble move. The decision was in Chris Bosh was leaving to Miami. The Raptors Franchise doomed. How could Toronto Replace its best player and leading point producer? Well the answer is Andrea. With Boshís territory finally vacated, Bargnani took a step into the painted area and demanded the ball. The post up felt awkward after all it had been 4 years in the waiting. What started like a long shot now seems like a slam dunk. The Magician has arrived!

  14. #3474
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    LOL. That was funny

  15. #3475
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    Yeah, well being a 7 footer, you would think that if he didn't get a chance to shoot the ball, he should have learned to rebound and that would have guaranteed him more minutes, no matter who the coach was. Nice writeup but I don't buy it. Some of it are true but overall, Barg should have gotten his butt in the gym and do what he has to do to be the top dog on the team or at least the second one. Hard work always pays off in the end, no matter what line of work you're in. Oh and by the way Barg, stop telling the media that you're LAZY sometimes and that's why you don't grab boards, wow!

  16. #3476
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    TIm your the delusional one. The fact that you focus so much on andrea shows that you have lost your objectivity. The whole team stinks at defense not just andrea. I've been saying this for two years while you blame everything on andrea. Andrea has stunk since being injuried and there is no other way to describe his play.
    The problem is the whole team stinks at defense. Even Wright stinks on defense as his feet are too slow to guard quick wings and he is too weak to guard big wings like pierce.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You seem to completely and utterly miss the point. Where were the articles? Well, you could check out my blog for one, but there were plenty of others. The complaint then was exactly the same as the complaint now; that Bargnani contributes nothing else except for points. He was still a bad defender and rebounder back when he was "dropping 25+ per game". It's just that people ignored it because they were distracted by the pretty scoring numbers. Why everyone is jumping on him now is because people are finally seeing it.

    I think it's great that Bargnani is gutting it out and not complaining about his injury problem. If you want to compliment him, you can compliment him on that. But the problem is that when he's not hitting his shot, he's not only completely useless, he hurts the team. If good players don't hit their shots, or can't do what they normally do because of injury, they find a way to contribute. Bargnani not only isn't doing that, he's making the team worse by being on the court.

    Bargnani's ardent fans are looking more and more delusional the more they defend him and refuse to see what is obvious to EVERYONE ELSE. Even the homer Raptor media is getting in line to take their whacks. And there was just recently a thread that talked about how people thought that Raptor commentators were prevented from saying anything negative about Raptor players.

    His defenders don't seem to realize how much credibility they lose every time they say things like the above post.

  17. #3477
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    The Magician has disappeared!

  18. #3478
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    When Carter left, Bosh was only half way through his second season at the age of 19 years old. Bargnani is 25 years old. See where I'm going with this?

  19. #3479
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    Quote Liston wrote: View Post
    Statistics tell the truth 68% of the time, 4 times in 20.


    "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Mark Twain

  20. #3480
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    I'm disappointed that Winston doesn't include the statistical error, since it is generally known that the biggest problem with the adjusted +/- stat is that it is extremely "noisy". For a statistician this is a serious oversight.

    With adjusted +/-, even with 2 year sample size you routinely see errors of 50, 100% or more, which means that the frequency of bogus results (called "outliers") increases rapidly with decreasing sample size. Half a season sample size is too small to have any confidence in the calculation.

    Without getting into specifics, you basically need enough data with enough variation in lineups for & against to separate the effect of the player vs. teammates vs. opposition lineups. There just aren't enough minutes in enough scenarios to do this with any level of confidence with only half season worth of data.

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