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  • Just to be clear, I'm not asserting anything other than Wayne Winston claims that Amir and Bargs are all stars via his method.

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    • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
      This is because his numbers take into consideration who each player is playing WITH and as well AGAINST.
      Bad teams have alot of Bad Players, and play against better players; according to Winston, the good players deserve more praise for still being good while surrounded by so much bad.
      Thats how I interpret it.. not sure I agree, but thats how I read it. haha
      +1

      PS, imagine we could have Bargs at the 4, and Bogut at 5

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      • Seeten wrote: View Post
        Just to be clear, I'm not asserting anything other than Wayne Winston claims that Amir and Bargs are all stars via his method.
        +1

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        • Using his model then Chris Bosh went from mega all-star to dud as quick as signing a dotted line.

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          • Interesting Article on Andrea Bargnani and the Raptors

            Zach Lowe wrote an article saying pretty much what most Raptors fans know except the biased ones who can't be objective.

            http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011...ors/#more-4920

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            • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
              This is because his numbers take into consideration who each player is playing WITH and as well AGAINST.
              Bad teams have alot of Bad Players, and play against better players; according to Winston, the good players deserve more praise for still being good while surrounded by so much bad.
              Thats how I interpret it.. not sure I agree, but thats how I read it. haha
              I understand how Winston came up with his list, and that's why I'm so critical of it: it favours people who put up numbers rather than win games. It favours guys who are forced to jack up shots on bad teams over guys who sacrifice shots and score efficiently on good teams. It doesn't take passing or rebounding into account, it doesn't include who sets a good screen and who doesn't. It clearly favours volume scorers, and by his measure DJ Augustin has a greater positive impact on his team than Rondo does, just as Crawford trumps Wade.

              I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail...

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              • So let's see. Bargnani does poorly in Basketball-Resource.com's Win Shares, Defensive Ratings and OFFENSIVE Ratings, poorly in 82games.com's Simple Rating and is extremely average in John Hollinger's PER (84th in the league). Wayne Winston, who left Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard off his All-Star list. I'd say flawed is an understatement.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                Follow me on Twitter.

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                • It's a good article. Sad but true. Bargnani needs to make friends with the Tinman so he can know where to find some heart

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                  • albertan_10 wrote: View Post
                    It's a good article. Sad but true. Bargnani needs to make friends with the Tinman so he can know where to find some heart
                    hahaha nice.
                    And ya, you can't really argue with any of this... it is what it is I suppose.

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                    • Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                      I understand how Winston came up with his list, and that's why I'm so critical of it: it favours people who put up numbers rather than win games. It favours guys who are forced to jack up shots on bad teams over guys who sacrifice shots and score efficiently on good teams. It doesn't take passing or rebounding into account, it doesn't include who sets a good screen and who doesn't. It clearly favours volume scorers, and by his measure DJ Augustin has a greater positive impact on his team than Rondo does, just as Crawford trumps Wade.

                      I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail...
                      Hey man, not everyone can understand protons, neutrons, dark matter, string theory, etc. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

                      Mathletics yo, it's for real.

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                      • Wow. It's almost like I wrote it. And this coming from a unbiased observer?
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                        Follow me on Twitter.

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                        • Ball don't lie, haters:

                          http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=1047


                          King Bargs

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                          • Nine New Faces wrote: View Post

                            I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail...
                            I don't really understand the newly found obsession with advanced stats in a sport like basketball where even a casual observer can watch a game and tell you who the best players are on the court. I don't need Ws48, WP, PER or Adjusted +/- to tell me that Andrea Bargnani is not one of the top 12 players (or top 3 centres) in the East. I can see that with my own eyes. Statistical analysis in the NBA has its uses (comparing players, trying to determine $$ value, matchups, 5-man units, etc.) but it isn't as meaningful as in baseball where I can look at any player's WAR number, never see him play a game, and still tell you whether he is worth obtaining. You can't do that with basketball players because there are simply too many variables and anyone who says he has discovered the basketball Rosetta Stone is a liar.

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                            • Apollo wrote: View Post
                              Using his model then Chris Bosh went from mega all-star to dud as quick as signing a dotted line.
                              Truer words have never been spoken

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                              • slaw wrote: View Post
                                I don't really understand the newly found obsession with advanced stats in a sport like basketball where even a casual observer can watch a game and tell you who the best players are on the court. I don't need Ws48, WP, PER or Adjusted +/- to tell me that Andrea Bargnani is not one of the top 12 players (or top 3 centres) in the East. I can see that with my own eyes. Statistical analysis in the NBA has its uses (comparing players, trying to determine $$ value, matchups, 5-man units, etc.) but it isn't as meaningful as in baseball where I can look at any player's WAR number, never see him play a game, and still tell you whether he is worth obtaining. You can't do that with basketball players because there are simply too many variables and anyone who says he has discovered the basketball Rosetta Stone is a liar.
                                Great post. Fully agree.


                                "The No-Stats All-Star"http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/ma...pagewanted=all
                                This is a GREAT READ. Little long, but grab a beer and really read it. Will turn Shane Battier into your favourite player, and will at least show the value of where these stats are useful, and where they are not.

                                If Bargs did ANY of these things that is talked about in that article, then fine.
                                But basically this is the ONLY way you gain respect in the league without actually "producing" out of this world stats.

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