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  • Aah, memories...................

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...92/1/index.htm

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    • Interesting article and he may be right, but honestly his statistical evaluations are really flawed. The fact that the top nine lineups in playing time are all weak and all contain Bargnani does not mean that all units containing Bargnani are weak. If it proves anything, it's that Triano doesn't seem to care about the statistical effectiveness of the units he gives heavy minutes to. (More on this in a moment...)

      Most of the lineups who perform well statistically, and have at least five minutes of playing time, also contain Bargnani. The problem is that Bargnani gets so many minutes that this sort of evaluation becomes impossible; it's essentially an experiment without a meaningful control. There's nothing to suggest that going with less Bargnani and more Johnson + Davis would result in better performances. On the contrary, the Johnson/Davis combo is part of some of the statistically worst units we've used, and part of only a small number of effective units.

      The writer points out that most teams have at least some statistically effective units who they use heavily, while the Raptors don't. This observation is mostly true, and is worth examining. So, what is the reason that none of the most used Raptors lineups are good statistically? Is it that good lineups are impossible with the current roster, or is it that the coaching staff refuses to use the most effective units? Is it possible that the coaching staff insists on using Bargnani and it's impossible to create a good lineup that contains Bargnani?

      We all know what Bargnani brings and that there are holes in his game. I believe the best way to create an effective lineup with Bargnani is to pair him with an aggressive perimeter defender who likes to rebound (ie. Julian Wright). The stats bear out that some lineups containing both Bargnani and Wright are amongst the most effective: the combination of Wright/Johnson/Bargnani is used in 11 lineups, and nine of these are statistically excellent (the two that aren't also involve Gaines and Jack). I think you would be hard-pressed to find any combination of three players on our roster who are as statistically effective together as these three.
      Lineups that use the combination of Wright/Davis/Bargnani are less effective, but the sample size is much smaller (and again, if you remove the lineups that involve Gaines, it actually is pretty decent). Given the improvements Davis has made and continues to make, there's no reason why that can't be a very effective combination.

      I don't want to paint Wright as the key to our success; he possesses a skill set that is rare on this team, but not that rare in the league overall; and there are problems with Wright's game as well. I hate seeing him look for his shot, but when he plays hard defense, rebounds, and looks to pass to better players than him, he's a valuable piece in our lineup. In short, yeah, there are flaws in Bargnani's game, and our lineup right now is full of holes. But the holes both in the lineup and in our roster are nothing that a good coaching staff shouldn't be able to reasonably fix.

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      • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
        Stop hating with your attempts of objectivity.

        This was a fantastic article though, thoroughly researched.
        And thank you for your objective judgment on my attempts of objectivity. See, this is why I find RR really frustrating. Even when you're trying to reason, someone else hates you because they think you hate. I'm done arguing this or anything pertaining to a topic that makes me feel like I'm chasing my own tail.
        “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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        • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
          IL MAGO!!!!

          Don't mess with the italian stallion...

          Can barly move, yet don't complain one bit thats the sign of a fighter!

          Where were those articles when healthy Bargnani he was dropping 25+ per game .. That's what I thought.. Anyone can hate when player is injured and underperforming.. True fans would realize this... Nobody is calling him the franchise.. but unfortuantly we don't have a lebron or wade to lead our team and that curtainly is not Andrea's fault.
          You seem to completely and utterly miss the point. Where were the articles? Well, you could check out my blog for one, but there were plenty of others. The complaint then was exactly the same as the complaint now; that Bargnani contributes nothing else except for points. He was still a bad defender and rebounder back when he was "dropping 25+ per game". It's just that people ignored it because they were distracted by the pretty scoring numbers. Why everyone is jumping on him now is because people are finally seeing it.

          I think it's great that Bargnani is gutting it out and not complaining about his injury problem. If you want to compliment him, you can compliment him on that. But the problem is that when he's not hitting his shot, he's not only completely useless, he hurts the team. If good players don't hit their shots, or can't do what they normally do because of injury, they find a way to contribute. Bargnani not only isn't doing that, he's making the team worse by being on the court.

          Bargnani's ardent fans are looking more and more delusional the more they defend him and refuse to see what is obvious to EVERYONE ELSE. Even the homer Raptor media is getting in line to take their whacks. And there was just recently a thread that talked about how people thought that Raptor commentators were prevented from saying anything negative about Raptor players.

          His defenders don't seem to realize how much credibility they lose every time they say things like the above post.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

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          • Bendit wrote: View Post
            Wow. Great Article. I guess BC did draft the best player on the board with your #1 pick. Let's give him some time. Unless we get an offer we can't refuse.
            Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 1, 2011, 08:56 PM.

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            • yertu damkule wrote: View Post
              i think you left 'the team' off the end of that statement. i'll assume it was a simple oversight...
              hahaha Touche.

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              • Bendit wrote: View Post
                If you want go down memory lane, these were the good times......
                http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...8397/index.htm

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                • ibzilla wrote: View Post
                  If you want go down memory lane, these were the good times......
                  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...8397/index.htm
                  Loove it. I'll be reading that one with a beer. hah

                  Comment


                  • What would Raptor nation do if Andrea is the starting center in 2011/2012?

                    Comment


                    • Multipaul wrote: View Post
                      I'm just trying to keep it positive my bro, whats the point on hating all the time. If it was all hatin, lets talk Kleiza, Amir, DD, Weems, everyone. Everyone sucks equally this year, and Andrea has been sucking lately too. Doesn't mean he isnt a #1 draft pick with a helluva lot of talent, best player on our team in fact.
                      I'm not hating. I just feel Bargnani isn't a #1 and isn't an all-star this season. He's put up big offensive numbers but he has a lot of work left to do.

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                      • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                        It's not that we 'disagree' with his findings; it's more the wording, or intent of the article. In my opinion.

                        If he is saying 'These guys should play in LA, and not the team that is selected by fans and coaches', then I do disagree with him wholeheartedly.

                        If he is simply saying 'These guys are the "All-Stars" of their teams and contribute the majority of that teams Stats in such and such catergories. And by "percentage" contribute 'more' then Kobe or Dwight.' Then you can't disagree.

                        But this essentially rewards Good Players on Bad Teams, and the All-Star game is really about the Best Players on the Best Teams. (and a few popular mediocre players.)
                        I think what he means by "All-Star" has nothing to do with who will play in the actual game. (As a statistician he likely abhors the way the All-Star teams are selected.) I think his "All-Stars" in this article are simply the leaders in this statistical method - i.e. "Adjusted +/-"

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                        • Well either way you're going down. We're 14th in the east losing 12 straight, when was the last time a team in this position had their best player picked by the coaches? never.

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                          • Dre has skills, but is lazy as fuck. He should not be looked at as a part of the teams core if he does not improve soon. End of story.

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                            • Apollo wrote: View Post
                              Numbers DO lie. They lie all the time.
                              Statistics tell the truth 68% of the time, 4 times in 20.


                              "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Mark Twain
                              http://twitter.com/Liston

                              Comment


                              • DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
                                Simmons and Henry Abbott did a podcast last week talking about advanced stats and how flawed they are and how in the game of basketball, you really don't have any measurable way to really tell how a player is.
                                They said nothing like that at all. Simmons did say that basketball was much tougher to measure than baseball. But listen to it again, he said he liked many of these and said PER was better than what we had and how much he uses the lineup +/- data. Of course they are not perfect, but Simmons repeated several times on how much better they are now.

                                Abbott even said that salary should be dependent more on adjusted +/- type measures.
                                http://twitter.com/Liston

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