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  • How many games has Oden even played in the NBA? I would rather keep Solo. Oden is an unproven commodity. College was a looooooonnng time ago for this fella

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    • I decided to join the Bargnani party...

      The biggest issue with the Raptors that I have is their inconsistency. They are a shooting team, and a shooting team can get cold. And when you shoot lousy you have to rely on your defense to keep you in the game. The best teams in the league have cold nights, but they play gritty defense and try to get to the free throw line to compensate for their poor offense.

      I think to a lot of people Bargnani is a very good representation of the team. He is a very inconsistent player. He can show up and have a heck of an offensive game. Drives to the basket, shoots threes, and is just solid. He can do well one on one. Has done very well against some elite scorers on defense. But this is rare and that's the problem. For the most part he does not show up, and that is the sore point for me anyways. When a player does not give his all every time. If some part of your game is not working, you should try something different to compensate. If you can't shoot, drive. If you can't drive, pass. If you can't pass rebound. But you should always play D. The problem is that when he's having a bad day, his entire day is bad. When he's playing injured, he's a huge liability. This is where you need a coach to sit him down, but for some reason Triano has a problem with that and that is why we always see the worst in Bargnani. I think he's coachable, but we have the wrong coach to work with him. Although you can say that Smitch was probably the right coach for Bargnani, yet he still never figured it out, so maybe he's not coachable?

      I think in a lot of ways Bargnani plays like the Raptors play, and that is why we are a lottery bound team. If we had people on the team that just worked hard every day (like Amir), on both ends of the court, I think we has a fan base would be much happier. The problem is we are a bad team, and the main reason why is because we are a terrible team on defense. So we look at the reasons why we are so bad, and the first face most people see is Bargnani.

      Bargnani isn't the only player. Jose can play bad. Demar is not perfect either.

      The difference though is that first Jose is a pass first point guard and his weakness there is he doesn't shoot enough. His job on defense is to just watch his man and try to get in front of him. Jose is not so bad against point guards really. He's slow sure, but his biggest liability is his contract, not his game. He would be an ideal backup point guard, but still an asset to any team (with the right contract).

      Demar on the other hand is still very raw. The thing that Demar is missing that I hope he gets soon is a killer instinct. In order to be an all-star player in the league, you need that. You need to go all out. Dunk over someone like Howard or Perkins. If you get nailed, you get back up and try again. You want that last shot at the end of the game. You want to cover the best player on the other team. He's still very young though, and needs to grow into that. I read Bill Simmons' book, and even though he's a bit of a blowhard, he makes a very good point. Most elite wing players hit their prime when they turn 23 years old. That is the year they turn it over from an okay player to an elite player. Demar will turn 22 this August. Let's see what happens next year. If he plays with the same level of inconsistency after he turns 23, then he should be moved.


      Perhaps Bargnani's biggest problem is that he was coddled. The Raptors need men on their team, not boys. I personally think its time to move on from that, and create a new identity for the team.

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      • Funny though...when Bargs DOESNT play..the rest of the team doesnt show up either. Amir and DD included. So what does that mean?

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        • bloodyhandedgod wrote: View Post
          Yes, he has the potential to be a better C than AB, but we need him at PF. And a real C to fill out our team. I think it is too much for ED to try and play against other C's night after night.
          Jaokim Noah isn't much bigger than Ed Davis. Is there any debating that Joakim Noah is a center? If Ed puts add mass to his frame then he can be one of the best centers in the league. Making Ed play center once he fills out is a lot easier than finding a good center externally.

          Macc wrote: View Post
          Sign him for under 5 million and I have no problem with getting Oden. I wouldn't want him as a starter though. He has to prove he can play consistent minutes off the bench and stay healthy before he thinks about smelling a starting spot.
          Macc, Oden's career average is 23 minutes a game and his body can't withstand that... It's not like the Blazers ran him into the ground. They carefully inserted him, making sure not to push him too hard and he still went down... With multiple devastating injuries... And not just on one, leg but both legs.

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          • Apollo wrote: View Post
            Jaokim Noah isn't much bigger than Ed Davis. Is there any debating that Joakim Noah is a center? If Ed puts add mass to his frame then he can be one of the best centers in the league. Making Ed play center once he fills out is a lot easier than finding a good center externally.
            That would be awesome. Big Ed at C, Bargs at PF. would be killer.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              JJ and Bayless' combined contract value per year is around $3.5M/year. That's not risky at all.

              I don't think a two year deal is going to appeal to the guy. Somebody is going to offer more. How much money were you thinking on that two year deal?
              2 Year 9 Million or a 3 year 12 Million.

              Plus, if he gets hurt, doesn't insurance pay for most of his salary ??!! Yes, he will be counted toward the CAP but lets face it, we are not going to be competitive enough to worry about the CAP for next 2-3 years anyway.

              That being said, Just Imagine if he gets healthy !!!

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              • MangoKid wrote: View Post
                Bayless and Johnson actually make contributions.
                What Bayless and Johnson bring to raptor is not even comparable to what a healthy Oden can give us.

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                • I thought this thread was about worst #1 picked centers.

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                  • Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
                    What Bayless and Johnson bring to raptor is not even comparable to what a healthy Oden can give us.
                    Healthy Oden. What an oxymoron!

                    Comment


                    • Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
                      2 Year 9 Million or a 3 year 12 Million.

                      Plus, if he gets hurt, doesn't insurance pay for most of his salary ??!! Yes, he will be counted toward the CAP but lets face it, we are not going to be competitive enough to worry about the CAP for next 2-3 years anyway.

                      That being said, Just Imagine if he gets healthy !!!
                      Someone in here made a good point earlier. I think it was Mango. You'll have the whole league jumping on board for that price to take a chance. Somebody is going to overpay to get him.

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                      • Multipaul wrote: View Post
                        Funny though...when Bargs DOESNT play..the rest of the team doesnt show up either. Amir and DD included. So what does that mean?
                        I agree in that the entire team is really bad. But I wish we'd stop comparing DD to Bargnani since DD is a Sophmore and Bargs is a 5 year pro.

                        But I like a challenge. So I took a look at some stats to see if your argument holds water. We do suck as a whole as a team, so the fact that Bargnani played a large majority of our games doesn't help your cause, however, I believe the best way to determine how the team does when Bargnani is not on the floor is to check out 82games.com.

                        Looking at the best 5-man rotations for the Raptors this year, which I found here:
                        http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR2.HTM

                        ... and sorting it by Winning Percentage (since that is really the only thing that matters) here are the top 7 rotations for the Raptors this year:

                        Calderon-DeRozan-Kleiza-Johnson-Dorsey
                        Calderon-Barbosa-Weems-Johnson-Bargnani
                        Bayless-DeRozan-Weems-Johnson-Davis
                        Calderon-DeRozan-Weems-Davis-Bargnani
                        Calderon-DeRozan-J.Johnson-Johnson-Bargnani
                        Calderon-DeRozan-J.Johnson-Johnson-Davis
                        Calderon-DeRozan-Wright-Johnson-Bargnani


                        The interesting thing is that there are 20 rotations listed. Bargnani is listed in 14 rotations, (so 70% of them), however Bargnani is *not* in the top rotation, and is also not in the 3rd and 6th rotations. So as you can see the team does relatively better without Bargnani in the line up, at least from these statistics.

                        Do also note that both Amir and DD are in 6 of the 7 rotations. And both are in the top rotation.


                        Going further, if we look at individual player stats:
                        http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR1.HTM

                        The list is like this:

                        Andersen 70.0
                        Alabi 66.7
                        Dorsey 65.6
                        Wright 53.8
                        Banks 50.0
                        Stojakovic 50.0
                        Dupree 50.0
                        T.Johnson 42.9
                        Johnson 42.4
                        Kleiza 42.1
                        Ajinca 41.7
                        J.Johnson 40.0
                        Barbosa 36.4
                        Calderon 36.4
                        Jack 30.8
                        Bargnani 32.7
                        DeRozan 29.5
                        Evans 28.6
                        Davis 27.3
                        Bayless 26.3
                        Weems 18.6
                        Gaines 0.0


                        So you have a point here, since DD is below Bargnani, but just by a little. Again I point out that he's a Sophmore. Evans was a surprise to me, but as you can also see Amir is near the top. That guy is a big asset for our team.

                        Ultimately though I still think our team could do better without Bargnani. Our offense will take a hit, but I think defense is especially more important in a big then a small. Most importantly though we need to move people who don't play hard both ways all the time, and just by watching the games this year, I can say that Bargnani just doesn't have that quality in him to play big most of the time. Again if DD continues to become inconsistent (especially on D) after his 23rd birthday, then I will be one of the first in line to say he needs to go. The same can be said about Davis too.. nobody is untouchable on this team.

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                        • Multipaul wrote: View Post
                          That would be awesome. Big Ed at C, Bargs at PF. would be killer.
                          ya it would kill our playoff chances.

                          Comment


                          • Multipaul wrote: View Post
                            That would be awesome. Big Ed at C, Bargs at PF. would be killer.
                            Bargnani is wayy to slow to guard the quick PF's in this league so we'd still be doomed untill bargnani is gone.

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                            • Raptors_ wrote: View Post
                              ya it would kill our playoff chances.

                              Comment


                              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                                I agree in that the entire team is really bad. But I wish we'd stop comparing DD to Bargnani since DD is a Sophmore and Bargs is a 5 year pro.

                                But I like a challenge. So I took a look at some stats to see if your argument holds water. We do suck as a whole as a team, so the fact that Bargnani played a large majority of our games doesn't help your cause, however, I believe the best way to determine how the team does when Bargnani is not on the floor is to check out 82games.com.

                                Looking at the best 5-man rotations for the Raptors this year, which I found here:
                                http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR2.HTM

                                ... and sorting it by Winning Percentage (since that is really the only thing that matters) here are the top 7 rotations for the Raptors this year:

                                Calderon-DeRozan-Kleiza-Johnson-Dorsey
                                Calderon-Barbosa-Weems-Johnson-Bargnani
                                Bayless-DeRozan-Weems-Johnson-Davis
                                Calderon-DeRozan-Weems-Davis-Bargnani
                                Calderon-DeRozan-J.Johnson-Johnson-Bargnani
                                Calderon-DeRozan-J.Johnson-Johnson-Davis
                                Calderon-DeRozan-Wright-Johnson-Bargnani


                                The interesting thing is that there are 20 rotations listed. Bargnani is listed in 14 rotations, (so 70% of them), however Bargnani is *not* in the top rotation, and is also not in the 3rd and 6th rotations. So as you can see the team does relatively better without Bargnani in the line up, at least from these statistics.

                                Do also note that both Amir and DD are in 6 of the 7 rotations. And both are in the top rotation.


                                Going further, if we look at individual player stats:
                                http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR1.HTM

                                The list is like this:

                                Andersen 70.0
                                Alabi 66.7
                                Dorsey 65.6
                                Wright 53.8
                                Banks 50.0
                                Stojakovic 50.0
                                Dupree 50.0
                                T.Johnson 42.9
                                Johnson 42.4
                                Kleiza 42.1
                                Ajinca 41.7
                                J.Johnson 40.0
                                Barbosa 36.4
                                Calderon 36.4
                                Jack 30.8
                                Bargnani 32.7
                                DeRozan 29.5
                                Evans 28.6
                                Davis 27.3
                                Bayless 26.3
                                Weems 18.6
                                Gaines 0.0


                                So you have a point here, since DD is below Bargnani, but just by a little. Again I point out that he's a Sophmore. Evans was a surprise to me, but as you can also see Amir is near the top. That guy is a big asset for our team.

                                Ultimately though I still think our team could do better without Bargnani. Our offense will take a hit, but I think defense is especially more important in a big then a small. Most importantly though we need to move people who don't play hard both ways all the time, and just by watching the games this year, I can say that Bargnani just doesn't have that quality in him to play big most of the time. Again if DD continues to become inconsistent (especially on D) after his 23rd birthday, then I will be one of the first in line to say he needs to go. The same can be said about Davis too.. nobody is untouchable on this team.
                                Interesting.

                                Ask yourself this, if you had to choose between 1 guy to be your focus on offense, night in, night out, hypothetically, would you want Bargs, or DD. I think Bargs' skillset is vastly superior and more dynamic and varied.

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