View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

Voters
128. You may not vote on this poll
  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
Page 313 of 528 FirstFirst ... 213 263 303 311 312 313 314 315 323 363 413 ... LastLast
Results 6,241 to 6,260 of 10548

Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6241
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,846
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    he back down from mid range and fires over the defender. How the hell is that "hard working" on offense?

  2. #6242
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    First of all, obviously I can't quote a stat that doesn't exist, so I'm not sure what your point is here. That's like saying that stats can't tell me how much effort Bargs exerted. But when you watch how hard a guy like Reggie Evans works and then you watch his teammate float around waiting for the ball to come to him, that gives me all the subjective opinion I need.



    Let me get this straight: you think work ethic and drive are somehow not connected? Like they aren't essentially different words for the same thing? Drive and work ethic are internal, not external factors. If the player doesn't have that hunger to be the best internally then odds aren't good that a coach is going to somehow magically impart it to them.




    Look, teaching someone to rebound should in no way take 4+ years. There is literally no excuse for that. It's a very simple concept and can be grasped in high school. There is not a lot of technique to it; it's a function of how badly you want to fight to keep the guy you should hopefully have sealed on your back away from the ball.

    To me, the idea that Bargs simply hasn't grasped HOW to be a good rebounder is as big a knock on him as the lack of effort, because frankly if you can't grasp the basics of rebounding in that amount of time then you're either not paying attention, or dumb as a post. The guy has been working with big man coaches since he got into the league, he's had the benefit of the Raptors coaching staff available to him to work with him and drill him if he wanted to, but what, he just hasn't bothered? And that's somehow ok? It's cool with him that Ed Davis, a skinnier, lighter guy just out of college and coming off an injury can outrebound him? He never bothered to ask Reggie Evans for any pointers while they were teammates? Sorry, I don't buy the skill argument. It's effort, it's desire, plain and simple.
    Well a guy like reggie evans, his focus is on rebounding. he doesnt work as hard on scoring the basketball, does he? Maybe its the opposite with Bargnani? Dont you think that maybe, his focus has been on scoring and not so much on rebounding? I think thats been pretty obvious, right? But just because he's only good in scoring doesnt mean he's not generally focus or doesnt have good work ethic.

    they can be connected, or they not as well. i come to work everyday and do my job to the T, thats having good work ethic and being focused on my job. Do i like doing it? Do i have the drive to do it? On good days maybe. What im trying to say is a player can be good at what he does, doesnt always mean he has the desire to do it, but since he has the skill to do it, its innate to him.

    I entirely agree with this, and this is not what ive been arguing about. Bargnani lacks effort on rebounding and defense, plain and simple. But i dont think thats the only think he lacks. He lacks the proper training and coaching, to improve on rebounding and defense. To you it doesnt take much to learn, but to me it does. Doesnt matter if youre skinny or lightier, if youve been trained since the beginning how to box out, move your feet, etc, that becomes natural sooner or later. Bargnani all his life was trained to be a scoring big man. Im not sure how the Raps dealt with him the past years during practice or the offseason, but its pretty evident that whatever theyve done so far on Bargnani's defensive game hasnt worked. And now they got a defensive coach and a defensive center in JV. IMO, thats catering to the team's need as well as to Bargnani's needs as well.

  3. #6243
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    You could be right. It's all speculation at this point in terms of how Bargnani is viewed/will be viewed by other GMs.

    But what I find fascinating is that you're an obvious fan of Gary Payton (based on your avatar), one of the greatest defensive players of all time at his position. That tells me that you appreciate a tough, intimidating, hard-working player. Yet you have no problem finding a plethora of excuses for Bargnani's defensive issues
    Ive been a defensive guard all my life so i know, and highly value defense. Thats why i keep saying, IF, and IF Bargnani does not improve defensively this season, he should be gone. At the same time, im a sucker for loyalty and usually route for the underdog. To tell you the truth, ive mostly defended Bargnani and try to find excuses because everybody else has thrown him under the bus for issues that are not ENTIRELY (i say not entirely because he is also to blame for lack of effort) his fault. BC drafted a guy, who he knows, is a jump shooting big man. If it was evident to him that Bargnani will not improve defensively, he shouldve traded him a long time ago and we wouldnt be having these discussions. But he didnt and now the team is stuck with him.

    As long as he's listed under the Raptors roster, ill defend the guy coz he plays for the team i support. When he's traded, i really dont care what he does anymore.

  4. #6244
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    and who would those people be?

    can we stats for that? because Bargnani's shot distribution says significantly different (unless jumpshots suddenly became the hardest working shot in basketball)
    I dont think he only does jumpshots. He posts up, drives hard to the basket, creates his own shot, shoots the three, fakes to shake off his defender. Im sure a shots chart can show his shot patterns. When i have time, ill look for it and post it.

  5. #6245
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't think it takes much pushing to get a player to take more shots. I wouldn't say it qualifies as "hard work".

    It's like saying a kid who excels at video games is a hard working kid, but the same kid refuses to do his homework, or household chores (i.e. stuff that actually requires effort).
    If you think "taking more shots" is what connotes scoring, then i dont think i can convince you otherwise.

  6. #6246
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    he back down from mid range and fires over the defender. How the hell is that "hard working" on offense?
    If you think thats the only thing he does on the offensive end, then i cant convince you otherwise.

  7. #6247
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    If you think "taking more shots" is what connotes scoring, then i dont think i can convince you otherwise.
    If Bargnani scored at an efficient rate, I might agree with your point. But he doesn't, so I don't see how his 20ppg is indicative of hard work.

    If you give Bayless, Calderon, Barbosa, DeRozan, Kleiza, or Weems 18 shot attempts per game, I'm sure they could all crack the 20ppg mark (just ask Mike James). But I wouldn't give any of them a ribbon for hard work.

    Regardless, I appreciate your loyalty to the team. I consider myself a very loyal fan myself (I mean, why else would I bother visiting this site on a daily basis after so many losing campaigns?). But when I identify players who inhibit the Raptors from achieving success, my loyalty wants him removed from the equation. IMO, Bargnani is one of those players based on his innate limitations.

    NOTE: "Innate" meaning natural, inborn, originating from the mind, etc...

    ...and therefore unlikely to change.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Dec 7th, 2011 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #6248
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    686
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont think he only does jumpshots. He posts up, drives hard to the basket, creates his own shot, shoots the three, fakes to shake off his defender. Im sure a shots chart can show his shot patterns. When i have time, ill look for it and post it.
    few things

    http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM

    80% jumpshots
    18% close
    3% at the rim (dunks/tips)


    http://hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx

    a little more specific, as the above is quite general

    FGA - area
    3.6 - at the rim (20% of all shots
    2.7 - 3-9 ft (15% of all shots)
    2.7 - 10 - 15 ft (15% of all shots)
    5.4 - 16 - 23 ft (30% of all shots)
    3.4 - from 3 (20% of all shots)

  9. #6249
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Actually, performance management theory predicts that if he DID make some changes to improve his rebounding/defense it would be relatively straightforward to help him maintain the effort with nothing more than positive reinforcement from his coaches, management and peers. You wouldn't have to provide negative reinforcement to punish him if he relapsed, just withhold any more positive.

    If Bargnani is not trying, it is because he is getting more Positive Immediate Consequences for lack of effort than Negative Immediate Consequences. The coaching staff need to find out what motivates this guy, what he considers a positive consequence or what he would consider a negative consequence. Bad publicity back home is embarrassing to him? Feed reports to the Italian press about his lack of effort so he gets hell from fans in his home country. Does he like the coach to pat him on the head in front of the other players? Then lost of praise. Does he care what his mother thinks? Then get her down in the front row seats for every game.
    After five years, 2 very different head coaches, numerous assistant coaches and dozens of different teammates, and constant shellacking by fans and members of the media, you really thinks he just needs the "right" kind of motivation? More importantly, is that really the type of guy you want on your team? I sure don't.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  10. #6250
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,799
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Haven't been on RR for so long! And haven't posted in even longer. This thread is obviously still going strong.

    Anyway, I am an avid Bargnani fan, have been since I first saw him play in Treviso. But as a primarily Toronto Raptor fan, it's pretty obvious he hasn't done very well for this team. He has a lot of strong points, had some good games, shown promise, but it has never gone beyond that. If a good trade comes along, I'm all for trading Bargnani, but unfortunately it seems unlikely, and throwing a talent like Bargnani out for nothing is just not worth it. This discussion is really tedious, as honestly there is no real point to it. Bargnani has underachieved whilst in a Raptor uniform, it's pretty much a fact and is pretty obvious. But whilst he's still a Raptor, we should still have faith and hope that he does turn out how we would like him to. I still hope that he actually turns out the player he was the potential to be, it's unlikely but a fan can hope. So until he gets traded, I will still believe that he could take a turn for the best.

    No, I am not delusional, just hopeful. After all, he's still a Raptor and as long as he's a Raptor him doing well wouldn't hurt the team would it.

  11. #6251
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Again, ive discussed this with you before. Nobody feels sorry for the guy, i know youve read most of the posts about him here, everybody's frustrated with him. And yes, so is BC. But why do you think he hasnt traded him yet? IMO, coz BC knows, they havent done everything yet to get this guy to improve, otherwise, like you said, he wouldve been traded a long time ago. Now that "the last line of defense" has been put up (defensive coach, defensive center in JV) he has no more excuses. But IF he does improve, then BC would realize he shouldve done this in the first place.
    I said it's hard to feel sorry for the guy because you complained he can't win. The reason he "can't win" is completely his own doing.

    As for the reasons Colangelo hasn't traded him yet, GarbageTime already listed several very good possibilities. His last one (ego) probably has a lot to do with yours. Colangelo, like a lot of GMs, feel that he just needs this or that to motivate them. The problem is that I've seen this same thing happening time and time again throughout the history of the NBA. And it almost never ends well.

    Colangelo went out on a limb and picked Bargnani first, so it's not surprising that he desperately wants to see him succeed. Trading him away admits failure.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think one of the main problems with your arguments is you keep comparing Bargnani with other PFs or C, what if you reversed it. What if you questioned why Gasol cant hit the 3 when he's pretty much the same built and height as Bargnani? Why doesnt DeAndre Jordan have a quick first step when he has the same built and height as Bargnani? Every player is different. Doesnt mean they have the same built and height you expect them to do the exact same things. Bargnani is not your typical PF or C. Doesnt excuse him from defending or rebounding, but unlike other centers it wasnt his priority then, but it should be now. Im really not sure where youre getting that he's not focused or has unsustained work ethic. Ive never heard he ditched practice or sulked on the bench. Triano played him almost 40 mins a game last season. If he wasnt focused or didnt have a good work ethic, why would they even let him play? The problem lies in his knowledge of defense and rebounding. Get the guy a trainer and grind him.
    I'm not sure what your point is. Gasol doesn't need to be able to hit the three point shot. He's already one of the best PFs in the game. Without a 3 point shot, Gasol isn't a liability. Same goes for Jordan.

    And are you really trying to tell me that defense or rebounding wasn't a priority for Bargnani until now?? Are you serious? This has been a priority for him since he was drafted. I can't believe I have to say this again, but it's been five years. FIVE YEARS. That's an entire career for most NBA players. Is he really that clueless that it took him five years to figure out that maybe he should start playing defense and rebounding NOW? If that's true, then there's absolutely no way I'd want a guy on my team with such a low basketball IQ that it takes him five years to figure out something that has been obvious to everyone else for years.

    And after five years, PLENTY of people have tried to teach him how to rebound and defend. The problem, however, is those are two things players should be doing on instinct, at Bargnani's stage in his career. If he hasn't gotten it in five years in the NBA and who knows how many before that, it's pretty safe to say he's never really going to get it. At least not to the extent that he's not a liability anymore.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I agree with the Derozan part. But i dont agree that Bargnani doesnt have a drive. He does. He just didnt focus it on defense and rebounding last year. And someone should nudge him to make him realize that.
    What makes you think Bargnani has drive? This is something that loads of people connected with the team has questioned. Something with drive would have improved in areas of such dire need before now.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont think its babysitting. Its professional sports, athletes are given proper training and coaching to improve, sustained improvement and hopefully reach potential. I dont think its logical to give a guy 10mil an year and let him work on the kinks on his game by himself. Like i said to Tim, if BC felt that he's exhausted his efforts on making Bargnani improve, why didnt he trade him long ago? Coz he knows he hasnt, and this last ditch effort (defensive coach, defensive center) is, well, a last ditch effort. I really think he would trade Bargnani if he still doesnt improve this season.
    If you have to do THAT much to motivate a player, it's babysitting. Players should be self motivated. The good ones generally are. The ones who win Championships generally are. The others spend their careers bouncing from lottery team to lottery team simply making a living.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Well, saying "watching games" is very subjective. Everybody can have an opinion by "watching games" but stats dont say he wasnt focused or wasnt unethical. Triano didnt say he lacked focus. BC didnt say he lacked work ethic. They both said Bargnani needs the drive and desire to improve.

    I dont agree with those percentages. Rebounding is a skill, you have to know how to plant your feet, move, where to position yourself, time your jump, etc etc. Even if Bargnani has 60% effort to rebound, he'd just be a headless chicken out there. You need an expert to teach you the proper techniques. Cant be all heart.

    I think we pretty much covered how bad Bargnani was last year, thats why the argument now is what IF he improves this year. I didnt say he was amazing last year, nobody's saying that. The argument now is, if he improves, what should be done with him. Thanks for the stats, but youve just reminded us what we've known all along.
    Okay, you just said that Bargnani didn't lack drive, but then admitted that Triano and Colangelo said he needed drive to improve. And the fact that he hasn't in five years doesn't tell you something? And as has been pointed out, drive and desire are pretty much the same as focus and work ethic.

    And while rebounding is part technique, it's most hard work. You have to want it. That's the mantra for ANY great rebounder.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    well it doesnt negate it. could also be that the Raps had no other viable center. But IMO, if he really lacked focus and work ethic, they wouldnt have even wasted time on him.
    Why? Bargnani was a number one pick that Colangelo has put his reputation on the line for. By trading Bargnani, Colangelo would be admitting failure. He wouldn't be the first GM to become delusional about a player.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  12. #6252
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Haven't been on RR for so long! And haven't posted in even longer. This thread is obviously still going strong.

    Anyway, I am an avid Bargnani fan, have been since I first saw him play in Treviso. But as a primarily Toronto Raptor fan, it's pretty obvious he hasn't done very well for this team. He has a lot of strong points, had some good games, shown promise, but it has never gone beyond that. If a good trade comes along, I'm all for trading Bargnani, but unfortunately it seems unlikely, and throwing a talent like Bargnani out for nothing is just not worth it. This discussion is really tedious, as honestly there is no real point to it. Bargnani has underachieved whilst in a Raptor uniform, it's pretty much a fact and is pretty obvious. But whilst he's still a Raptor, we should still have faith and hope that he does turn out how we would like him to. I still hope that he actually turns out the player he was the potential to be, it's unlikely but a fan can hope. So until he gets traded, I will still believe that he could take a turn for the best.

    No, I am not delusional, just hopeful. After all, he's still a Raptor and as long as he's a Raptor him doing well wouldn't hurt the team would it.
    Hey, welcome back. Believe it or not, the Everything Bargnani thread went cold for quite a while. With the NBA back in business, though, old arguments come back out.

    And I think all of us HOPE he improves, but most of us would rather see him traded because the likelihood is that he won't.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  13. #6253
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,427
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    few things

    http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM

    80% jumpshots
    18% close
    3% at the rim (dunks/tips)


    http://hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx

    a little more specific, as the above is quite general

    FGA - area
    3.6 - at the rim (20% of all shots
    2.7 - 3-9 ft (15% of all shots)
    2.7 - 10 - 15 ft (15% of all shots)
    5.4 - 16 - 23 ft (30% of all shots)
    3.4 - from 3 (20% of all shots)
    That 30% is the killer.

  14. #6254
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Halifax
    Posts
    1,670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    That 30% is the killer.
    bingo. lowest value shot possible, and it's the one he takes the most of. i'd rather he took half as many of those & twice as many 3's...or spent more time posting up - at least there's the potential to draw contact/fouls that way, even if his post game is suspect for a 4/5.

    it's funny, we used to lose our shit when krapono would pull his patented 'fake-the-3-step-in-for-the-20-footer' - since, y'know, he was signed to shoot (& hit) 3's. for some reason, bargnani taking fewer 3's %-wise is hailed as some sort of improvement.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  15. #6255
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default ESPN Insider: Could Raptors cut Bargnani? (Opinion)

    Can anybody please get/post the full article?
    I dont know why ESPN is making people pay to read their articles, are they that poor now?

  16. #6256
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    12,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm seeing no mention of this anywhere. You'll need to post the link and then I can look. I have Insider.

  17. #6257
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    25
    Post Thanks / Like

  18. #6258
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,083
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I'm seeing no mention of this anywhere. You'll need to post the link and then I can look. I have Insider.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...candidates-nba

  19. #6259
    Raptors Republic Starter Katman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Burlington
    Posts
    243
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Who are some other darkhorse amnesty candidates that could be next to fall? Here are five:

    1. Andrea Bargnani, Toronto Raptors
    Remaining contract: 4 years, $41.5 million

    The Bargnani contract reeks of dissonance. If the Raptors drafted him No. 10 and not No. 1, would they feel differently about using the amnesty? As a business venture, organizations should strip their emotional ties to players and view the contracts as cold, hard assets. And an impartial viewer would look at a player like Bargnani and likely conclude that his contract is plain awful.

    Sure, he averaged 21.4 points per game last season, but he also needed 17.8 shots per game to get there. Not to mention he may be the worst defender and the most pathetic rebounder for his size. But irrational sentimentality will most likely keep him in Toronto.
    This is just the usual trolling article from ESPN, no substance.

  20. #6260
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,083
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Katman wrote: View Post
    This is just the usual trolling article from ESPN, no substance.
    Very much agreed. Thank you for posting.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 4 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 4 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •