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  • tbihis wrote: View Post
    Well, why cant Bargnani be an exception as well? Is there a written rule that is being followed as to why he cant play a position others dont brand him to be in? Magic is not an exception, he is among a few.

    Then why do you keep saying he's a center? Now youre saying PF and C are the same. Why didnt you say he's a PF and C in the first place? Im not comparing a PF and PG, or C and PG, im merely using Magic as an example that not all players need to be categorized in a specific position based on their body structure.

    I think that was one of the main reasons why this season was a wash, and Triano said it himself, he had to change lineups and rotations on a nightly basis. And that doesnt go well for a team, coz there's no stability. Same with Bargnani, he probably got confused at some point, what should i really do here? guard PFs? guard Cs?

    Well, you dont know that. you cant really tell how his gameplay will change if you dedicate him to the PF spot, hence the phrase practice makes perfect. Maybe he's not versatile enough to play both positions, why expose him to that situation? if he says he's a PF, then make him a PF. if youve dedicated your resources into making him a PF and he's still crap, then get rid of him. But its unfair to assume that he dilly-dallied from two positions that he's the worst in both without even having him planted on one specific position.

    we share the same sentiments here. but you cant keep getting guys for one thing (scoring) and try to expect them to be above average in another thing when clearly, the guy is not. if the team needs scoring and defense and you want to get both in one player, then get that player.
    He's a big man who is an extremely poor defender and rebounder. In the end, that's really all that matter. It trumps whatever he does on the offensive, no matter what position he plays. Magic would still have been a Hall of Fame player if he had spent his career at PF, where he actually did play his first season (Norm Nixon was the Laker's PG).

    I keep hearing that you can't expect Bargnani to rebound and defend because that's not what he's there to do. This boggles my mind, quite frankly. Rebounding and defending should be a given, for a big man, not a bonus. If I eat a meal in a restaurant, the main thing I want is for it to taste good. Price, presentation, ambience and service are certainly important, but if it doesn't taste good, who cares about the other things.
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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      I'm pretty sure I do know all players aren't the same. But my point is that Bargnani seems to be incredibly high maintenance for a guy who really only brings to the table one thing. I think the difference is that I never felt his upside was nearly as high as some of you guys did.
      I dont think high maintenance is the correct phrase. High maintenance is you already have what it takes, but youre just milking the situation to get more out of it. Like a hot girl, she's already hot and attracting attention, but she still needs expensive stuff and thick make-up to feel good. Sorry for the analogy but thats the easiest way to describe it. Bargnani is not high maintenance, he simply, currently does not have the skills to be a good defender or rebounder. Simply put, Bargnani is not a hot girl. He is an unattractive girl who needs makeup and expensive stuff to look good. So inorder for him to become a good rebounder/defender, you have to teach, instill, drive it into his brain.

      High maintenance would be somebody like Lebron, IMO. He had the tools to win a championship in cleveland, but he goes out and one-ups himself by joining forces with Dwade and Bosh.

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      • Bargnani staying? Solution is simple, and has been for the past 3-4 years: MAKE HIM ACCOUNTABLE. That's on Collangelo, Triano, and the few fans who keep babying him and making excuses about his lack of effort defensively. If they did that then one of two things would happen: a) he'd smarten up and actually give an honest effort. b) his minutes will go down drastically because he just doesn't get it. His trade value would plummet, and he'd be an overpaid end-of-the-bench player. But hey, we get to keep him.

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        • raptorsking wrote: View Post
          eww
          Hey, I never said that it would be pretty.

          I still would much rather have Davis beside Bogut hypothetically, but whatever...That proposed trade is probably what it would take for the Bucks to move a player like Bogut.

          Even if we tried to hold the guy accountable like Tibs or Sloan would, I think Bargnani would break down, rather than break out.

          If you just want him to stay, regardless of how it will (not) work out, just move Davis or Amir for this mythical real C.

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          • Ed Davis to gain 25 pounds and D-up on opposing Centers ... and grab mad rebounds.

            -very possible on both fronts I say.
            The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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            • i don't see a solution that could be deemed a positive solution to both our franchise and value of bargs as an asset. limiting his minutes and decreasing his role is only going to minimize the return we'll receive for him while it'll do absolutely no good for his confidence and development as a player.

              to keep the integrity of your thread alive, the only solution would to have him in the same role until he was traded.

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              • WhatWhat wrote: View Post

                The picture says it all... this is the only solution to keeping Bargnani, and good luck with that.

                While I'm for him moving to the bench as opposed to starting... you are killing his "value" (and I use that loosely)

                If you keep starting him without the above superman... you are going to be sitting on one of the worst defense in the league year after year.

                There is NO FEASIBLE option to keep Bargnani and expect this team to improve with any level of significance over both the short and long term.

                Bye Bye Bargnani... don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Hope another teams bench is a comfortable fit for you.

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                • Bargnani is a legit 7 footer, 18-20ppg scorer who can score from anywhere within half court. HE IS AN ASSET who should be kept; another thing people forget to mention is that ,without looking at the raptors record, Bargnani has improved every year he was in the league (except for that nasty sophomore slump).Ever since Jermaine O'Neal has gotten traded Barg's has been improving his game, the evidence is in his stats...go look. His price is a tad steep but an average 10 mil/year contract isn't a major cap killer,especially since I can name numerous worse players making more money (Elton brand, Ben Gordan, Charlie V, Magette, Brendan Haywood anyone?) In rebuilding mode I will take the defensive hiccups, moving to PF should help his defense because 1) he'll be alot bigger and quicker (for now) against most PFs so I purpose the following trade to get him some help:

                  Toronto trades Calderon and whatever reasonable asset needed (no picks, bayless, davis, or DeRo) to the LA Clippers for Chris Kaman

                  Toronto gets a proven banger center and frees up the PG position to take either Irving or Knight

                  My one worry, Bayless has been impressive and gets alot of praise from other players in the league as being "legit" so maybe PG is not a pressing need so we could target a SF
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                  • Status Quo

                    I hate Bargnani's game. I don't recall ever liking his game since he came into the league. As far as solution is concerned, should BC retain his current position, there will be a concerted effort to really find a true center for Bargs (like an Okaforesque gargantuan effort). The plethora of true 5s in this league is as rare as diamonds in the rough. Sadly, if BC comes back, Andrea is not going anywhere (much to the chagrin of Tim W. and myself). As for the future of Ed Davis once AB slides into the 4-spot, who knows. I don't think BC is looking that far down the line (he's just worried about his contract status at the moment).
                    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                    • The article by Michael Grange is a bit harsh, but he makes some good points.

                      I don't think Bargnani is cut out to be the leader of a franchise. He was put into that role (along with DeRozan, kind of) because Bosh left and MLSE needed to put someone's face on the tickets. It's frustrating to watch him play, but only because I (like almost everyone else) expect him to be Mr. Everything. Maybe we're expecting too much.

                      Bargnani would make a great role player on a team that already has some grinders. A team where his lack of rebounding and defense would be less noticed.

                      The obvious solution is to trade him to Chicago for Chuck Swirsky.
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                      • Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                        I hate Bargnani's game. I don't recall ever liking his game since he came into the league. As far as solution is concerned, should BC retain his current position, there will be a concerted effort to really find a true center for Bargs (like an Okaforesque gargantuan effort). The plethora of true 5s in this league is as rare as diamonds in the rough. Sadly, if BC comes back, Andrea is not going anywhere (much to the chagrin of Tim W. and myself). As for the future of Ed Davis once AB slides into the 4-spot, who knows. I don't think BC is looking that far down the line (he's just worried about his contract status at the moment).

                        Keep in mind I'm biased on Colangelo in that I want him back.


                        With that said, my impression of the press conference today (you can watch the entirety in 8 part on raptors.com) is Bargnani is very much available if the right deal comes along - as is any other player for that matter. Whether or not Bargnani returns, there will be a need to get a true C. I thought Colangelo was very frank in discussing Bargnani today - there was little praising outside the offensive end and little denying his limitations. Keep in mind a GM cannot trash his own player in the media and then sing his praises to another GM in a potential trade expecting to get fair value.

                        I have to 100% disagree on how far BC is looking down the line. It seems pretty obvious TOR could have obtained Gerald Wallace who very well could have put them in the playoff picture as another scoring threat on the perimeter and solid perimeter defender who rebounds. I say this is obvious because he was bascially obtained for expirings and a high teen 1st round pick. This move might have done much this year but would have screwed the franchise 2 years down the road.

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                        • Holy Craptors wrote: View Post
                          The obvious solution is to trade him to Chicago for Chuck Swirsky.
                          I like the cut of your jib! We'll get along juuust fine. haha
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                          Holy Craptors wrote:
                          Bargnani would make a great role player on a team that already has some grinders. A team where his lack of rebounding and defense would be less noticed.
                          I used to disagree with this mindset, but more and more lately I see him as a bigger, paler, nicer talking J.R.Smith. Which isn't a bad thing. He just needs the luxury of not being placed into a role that he is incapable of fulfilling the expectations.
                          His ego is soft and tender.

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                          • trade for a good defensive minded center
                            ya dun noe

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                            • DD Vs. AB

                              Matt52 wrote: View Post

                              Keep in mind I'm biased on Colangelo in that I want him back.


                              With that said, my impression of the press conference today (you can watch the entirety in 8 part on raptors.com) is Bargnani is very much available if the right deal comes along - as is any other player for that matter. Whether or not Bargnani returns, there will be a need to get a true C. I thought Colangelo was very frank in discussing Bargnani today - there was little praising outside the offensive end and little denying his limitations. Keep in mind a GM cannot trash his own player in the media and then sing his praises to another GM in a potential trade expecting to get fair value.

                              I have to 100% disagree on how far BC is looking down the line. It seems pretty obvious TOR could have obtained Gerald Wallace who very well could have put them in the playoff picture as another scoring threat on the perimeter and solid perimeter defender who rebounds. I say this is obvious because he was bascially obtained for expirings and a high teen 1st round pick. This move might have done much this year but would have screwed the franchise 2 years down the road.
                              I'm not sure if he was referring to Wallace. It is to my understanding based on what I read, Wallace was happy in Charlotte and won't have anything to do with Toronto as a playing destination.

                              It's going to boil down to this in my opinion. He has two key players to keep in this country: Demar and Ed. Nothing is stopping those two from not resigning past their rookie contracts if they're not happy with the direction of the team. I don't want to read too much into this but one cannot deny their comments about "needing a banger" and a defensive anchor in the middle. If those two are unhappy, they walk and this franchise will never get over the migration of American players once their rookie contracts are up.

                              Andrea has never been a fit IMO. I'm not sure if there's room for a 7' 1" Jamal Crawford clone in this league to be perfectly honest. By next season, if AB7 is still here, it's going to be between Demar and Andrea. Guess what, the locker room will be fractured once more.
                              “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                              • Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                                I'm not sure if he was referring to Wallace. It is to my understanding based on what I read, Wallace was happy in Charlotte and won't have anything to do with Toronto as a playing destination.

                                It's going to boil down to this in my opinion. He has two key players to keep in this country: Demar and Ed. Nothing is stopping those two from not resigning past their rookie contracts if they're not happy with the direction of the team. I don't want to read too much into this but one cannot deny their comments about "needing a banger" and a defensive anchor in the middle. If those two are unhappy, they walk and this franchise will never get over the migration of American players once their rookie contracts are up.

                                Andrea has never been a fit IMO. I'm not sure if there's room for a 7' 1" Jamal Crawford clone in this league to be perfectly honest. By next season, if AB7 is still here, it's going to be between Demar and Andrea. Guess what, the locker room will be fractured once more.
                                I think Wallace in TOR was in the summer of 2008 when they could have got JO or Wallace and Wallace let it be known he would not be interested in playing here. That was 3 years ago, though. And with him under contract for 2 more seasons where ever he was traded, he would have to go.

                                I agree with your other comments, 100%. I am very curious as to the trade value of Bargnani.

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