View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6321
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    So, your intent is to preach to the choir? A big problem with the Bargnani discussion is that most of the time it's ridiculously biased (and repetitive as their is no convincing people). Some people who are anti-Bargnani want to use everything aginst him and use every stat available that CAN be explained as something against Bargnani in total isolation of the total picture.



    That was last year (him being MVP and winning for a change), and last year he did shoot 52% from 16-23 feet, but after 2007/8 he had three years where he shot 46/47/48 % which is only slightly better than Bargnani's 44% from last year (which was above the league average of about 40/42%). And, for example, if one is being honest one has to take into account the fact that it's easier for Nowitzki because of his supporting cast. Amongst others, Nowitzki last year had good 3point shooters spreading the floor, something which Bargnani does not have (besides Calderon) which makes it much more easy to defend Bargnani because opponents don't have to close out on shooters.

    If you just say it's a bad shot because of the shotlocation, than it would be a bad shot for Nowitzki as well. If we take into account other factors for Nowitzki we should for Bargnani as well.



    You can easily verify this by going to hoopdata.com and calculate it. Maybe there is even a site where you can directly get the percentages that I'm not aware of. No need to take my word for it.



    I have to disagree, about DD as well as about Bargnani.

    1) Between 16-23 feet are not all extremely long shots. A lot of those shots are from a position from where they can go to the basket as well as pull up for the shot. You don't really get that double threat from three point range. It's really hard to make plays that far away from the basket.

    Bargnani's FTA/FGA (freethrows attempted / fieldgoals attempted) was 30%, which is not too bad (Derozan was at 35% btw). Logically the foulrate was much higher on isolation/PNR-man/Post-Ups (11%/9,5%/7,7%) than on Spot-Ups (5,5%).

    2) And we need 1) because in our starting line-up of last year, those were the two players which were asked to be the primary scorers. Bargnani had a high usage rating, much higher than it should be in my opinion, but was that because he just look to shoot the ball any chance he got? Did he just go against the plays and plans of the coaches, was he just doing his own thing? I donít think so, I think thatís what was being asked of him and considering the lack of players with a diverse offensive arsenal that wasnít illogical. Just to reÔterate: besides Bargnani and Calderon there wasnít a player in our starting line-up (after Kleiza went down) that could shoot the three at a rate better than 25%(!)

    Besides, taking 30% of his shots from 16-23 feet is only slightly more than some of the top teams average from that range. Atlanta 30%, Boston 29%, Chicago 27%, Miami 29%. Do you suggest they are all doing it wrong?

    If you want Bargnani to just spot up at the threepoint line and you want DeRozan too just take jumpers if he is within 15 feet you are asking the team (we had last year Ė starting line-up of Calderon/DeRozan/Johnson/Johnson or Davis/Bargnani) to become extremely inflexible on offense. That would be terrible.

    By the way, itís hard to get a jumpshot from 10-15 feet as itís only about 10% of the shots taken in the league. Iím glad DeRozan extended his range on the long jumpers to an acceptable level (just below or around the league average). For example: without range on the team, even though it was still limited, I donít believe for one second that Amir Johnson would have been able to be as efficient as he was cutting to the basket, on the PNR and on offensive rebounds.



    I am not at all happy with Bargnaniís efficiency, in case you think I am. But you canít just look at his efficiency without looking at the team he played in and what and how much he was asked to do and at least think about how that might affect his efficiency. Bargnani getting more efficient has a lot to do with lowering his usage, which means we need more weapons.



    Iím glad he didnít because the issues you mention are not the right ones. Accountability is very well if you can also teach and train the team to do things well. As bad as we were defensivily, thatís not just solved by holding people accountable (as we would have no player left after the first game!), you got to have some balance in the team and you have to be able to teach the right things.
    Just want to add, i noticed that Dirk's defensive rating was higher when he played alongside a defensive center

  2. #6322
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Just want to add, i noticed that Dirk's defensive rating was higher when he played alongside a defensive center
    Haha, oh, now you're just trying to piss people off

  3. #6323
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I am really rooting for Bargnani this year.

    I hope it all comes together (but I am prepared for the disappointment that has come with each of the last 4 seasons).

    A strong season by Andrea helps the team whether he is here beyond 2011-12 or not. If he can become a little more efficient on offense and put up Nene-like rebounding (7.6rpg) and David West-like defense, the guy is an all-star without a doubt.

    The typical response is well he hasn't done it in 5 years, why would he start now. Well....

    1) he is entering his prime at 26,
    2) he looks to be in better shape than I can ever remember,
    3) he is speaking very confident and answers are direct (no more, "Uh, I dunno, I guess I'm lazy?"),
    4) he is aware of the expectations of this year with Dwane Casey,
    5) he is aware the coddling is over on the bench and in the front office (Gheradini has been sent back to Europe and BC refers to him as an asset),
    6) he no longer has the psychological stigma of being the starting C and he no longer has the excuse, "They aren't using me right."


    Maybe I'm delusional - and I probably am - but whether Bargnani is a Raptor beyond this season or not, I hope he shocks us all.

    *EDIT* I should clarify: I hope he shocks us all this year. If he is not a Raptor after this season, I could care less what he does. If he is a Raptor after this year, I hope the shock continues.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Dec 11th, 2011 at 09:14 PM.

  4. #6324
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    My point is something else. Nevertheless I agree in part, except for the semantics. "Pretty poor" = fta/fga at 30%, where "a very high rate" is respectively 35% and 38%. But that 30% is exactly the average of the league, with only three teams higher than DeRozan's 35% and most teams around that 30% (+ or - 1/2 %). For example, Toronto and LA are at 29,3%, whereas the NBA champions are even below that.

    So, Bargnani shoots from 16-23 feet just a little more than average, he scores also just above average (which should even out) and he goes to the freethrowline at an average rate (I agreed in part because I'd like Bargnani to get to the freethrow line more as well).

    There doesn't seem a lot wrong or poor here, except that some people are now thinking about the reply "But if he's average on offense, but below average on defense, that means we were right after all?" which would be taking things out of context again, but I'm not going to bet against this happening...
    But it's not teams you need to compare them to. It's players. No one expects role players to get to the line at a high rate, especially guards. Calderon's is 17%, but since he's not a scorer, and does other things well, then that's not a big problem. Last season, he took less than half the shots per game Bargnani did.

    Bargnani needs to be compared with other scorers, since that's what he's good at (and unfortunately that's ALL he's good at). Among the top 20 scorers in the NBA last season, the only other player whose FTA/FGA percentage was less than 30% was Michael Beasley, another one dimensional player who I don't see ever playing meaningful minutes on a contender.

    The whole problem with scorers who don't get to the line at a high rate is they aren't able to manufacture points very well. And that's exactly what their job is supposed to be if they're a scorer. Scorers who don't get to the line at a high rate are more susceptible to droughts and inconsistencies. If you're relying on a player who is an inconsistent scorer, it makes things a lot more difficult.
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  5. #6325
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    But it's not teams you need to compare them to. It's players. No one expects role players to get to the line at a high rate, especially guards. Calderon's is 17%, but since he's not a scorer, and does other things well, then that's not a big problem. Last season, he took less than half the shots per game Bargnani did.

    Bargnani needs to be compared with other scorers, since that's what he's good at (and unfortunately that's ALL he's good at). Among the top 20 scorers in the NBA last season, the only other player whose FTA/FGA percentage was less than 30% was Michael Beasley, another one dimensional player who I don't see ever playing meaningful minutes on a contender.

    The whole problem with scorers who don't get to the line at a high rate is they aren't able to manufacture points very well. And that's exactly what their job is supposed to be if they're a scorer. Scorers who don't get to the line at a high rate are more susceptible to droughts and inconsistencies. If you're relying on a player who is an inconsistent scorer, it makes things a lot more difficult.
    Come on, lets not kid each other and judge him as an elite top 10/20 scorer or certified allstar. He is right up there with Aldridge (31%) and does better than Boozer, Ellis (also top 20 btw), Parker and other quality scoring players.

  6. #6326
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Come on, lets not kid each other and judge him as an elite top 10/20 scorer or certified allstar. He is right up there with Aldridge (31%) and does better than Boozer, Ellis (also top 20 btw), Parker and other quality scoring players.
    Acc. to yahoo, Bargnani FTA is 5.3, Demar's is 4.9 and Dirk's is 6.1. No that far off.

    I think him shooting perimeter shots actually does the team good, since he pulls out the opposing center and gives the other offensive players space to move within the paint. It gives Demar the advantage since he's a slasher, and it also helps out Amir since he mostly gets his points around the rim.

  7. #6327
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Come on, lets not kid each other and judge him as an elite top 10/20 scorer or certified allstar. He is right up there with Aldridge (31%) and does better than Boozer, Ellis (also top 20 btw), Parker and other quality scoring players.
    I'm not judging him as an All-Star. I'm judging him for what he is. A scorer. Now, I'm not a fan of either Ellis or Boozer. I think if Chicago could, they would rather have not signed him and if they can trade him, I think they would. Still, at least Boozer also gives you some rebounds. Ellis I view as a shorter, better scoring version of Bargnani. The only thing going for him over Bargnani is that he's not a big man, so his lack of defense doesn't hurt as much.

    Parker is a PG who can affect the game by passing the ball. Plus, he's got a VERY good true shooting percentage because he takes the majority of his shots from inside the paint.

    Aldridge is a decent rebounder and defender, so when he's not scoring, he's at least having a positive impact, on the court.

    Again, I've never, ever judged Bargnani as an All-Star, but he only does one thing at an acceptable level: score. He's a poor defender, rebounder, and doesn't do any of the little things that role players must learn how to do. He's a scorer. That's it. That's the only positive thing he brings. And the problem is that he's not an efficient scorer. So his one strength is unfortunately not as good as it seems on the surface. Some people act as if all points are equal. They're not.
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  8. #6328
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think him shooting perimeter shots actually does the team good, since he pulls out the opposing center and gives the other offensive players space to move within the paint.
    But Bargnani isn't a centre anymore (not that I actually believe this), so opposing centres won't be following him out there anymore.

  9. #6329
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    But Bargnani isn't a centre anymore (not that I actually believe this), so opposing centres won't be following him out there anymore.
    I was referring to past seasons since the stats being presented by Soft Euro and Tim W were from the past seasons.

    I havent seen him play beside a true center so im not sure whats going to happen.

  10. #6330
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    The entire point to linking Bargnani's shot distribution was to show that he is primarily a jump shooter on offense (as per Tbihis and my discussion). That while he is, atleast in theory, 'diverse' offensively he relies more on his jumpshot than anything. And yes Dirk does take more 16-23 footers, but Dirk is also one of the best shooters in the game. The guy shoots 52% from the 16-23 ft range vs Bargnani's 44%. Thats one of the things that makes Dirk special... that he makes the inefficient efficient. Its one of the (many) reasons why Bargnani is nothing like Dirk.... no matter how much people wish they were comparable.

    As for Demar. Yes he does take alot of jumpshots aswell, and that should not have gone unnoticed over the season and it is also something, I atleast, hope he doesn't fall in love with. But he also took 30% of his shots at the rim (vs. 20% from Bargnani). 25% of his scoring comes from the line (vs 20% from Bargnani). He shoots a better FG% than Bargnani and he only just finished his 2nd year in the league.... all while entering the league with no special ability other than athleticism. Oh did I mention he's a shooting guard?

    Come on, lets not kid each other and judge him as an elite top 10/20 scorer or certified allstar. He is right up there with Aldridge (31%) and does better than Boozer, Ellis (also top 20 btw), Parker and other quality scoring players.
    yet if Bargnani's scoring isn't 'elite' or special or all-star worthy... what exactly does he bring to the table? Why not try and replace him with someone else whose offense also isn't elite or all-star worthy but is also able to/willing to rebound and defend? Oh but then again we have statements like this (from Papa Burgundy):

    Bargnani is a 1-dimensional player ... and he is elite in that dimension. You need a balance of elite talent to be a contender. So the answer is to keep the elite talent when you have it, and find other pieces that balance the roster (hello Ed, hello Jonas).
    or I could include the any number of statements through out this thread that infers Bargnani's 'eliteness' by pointing out he is 16th in the league in scoring or 2nd amongst Cs in scoring. People do think Bargnani's scoring is elite and special. But it isn't... its inefficient. He scores in bulk, by taking alot of jump shots, by having a high usage rate. Thats neither special nor unique.

    And if his scoring isn't elite or special... and his rebounding is pathetic and defense terrible..... what exactly is the point?

    Just want to add, i noticed that Dirk's defensive rating was higher when he played alongside a defensive center
    Dirk's career average Defense rating is 103. Bargnani's 111.

    Dirk's best year by defense rating was 2002/03 (ironically enough his 5th year in the league) when the team was centered by a platoon of Raef Lafrentz and Shawn Bradley. His defense rating was 98 that year.

    He also managed to grab 10 rebounds a game, block a shot a game and come up with 1.4 steals a game... oh yeah and all that while scoring 25+ points on 18.6 shots.

    Exactly what are we comparing between the two? Thats right... they both are jumpshooting bigs therefore Bargnani is magically 'like' Dirk (and not Channing Frye)

  11. #6331
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Exactly what are we comparing between the two? Thats right... they both are jumpshooting bigs therefore Bargnani is magically 'like' Dirk (and not Channing Frye)
    C'mon man, they're both from Europe. That means they're the same player, and have the same MVP-calibre ceiling, DUH!

    Oh yeah, and stats are for suckers (apparently).

  12. #6332
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Dirk's career average Defense rating is 103. Bargnani's 111.

    Dirk's best year by defense rating was 2002/03 (ironically enough his 5th year in the league) when the team was centered by a platoon of Raef Lafrentz and Shawn Bradley. His defense rating was 98 that year.
    Im not sure if your comment was pro or con towards my post, but yes, Dirk's DRtg is lower by avg, my guess is, because he's always been paired with a defensive center. And yes it was 2002/03 when he got his best DRtg. What you forgot to post though was so did both Lafrentz and Bradley. That year was their best DRtg in their careers. Did it help Dirk? Maybe. Will it do the same for Bargnani? I hope.

  13. #6333
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    C'mon man, they're both from Europe. That means they're the same player, and have the same MVP-calibre ceiling, DUH!

    Oh yeah, and stats are for suckers (apparently).
    +1.

  14. #6334
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    C'mon man, they're both from Europe. That means they're the same player, and have the same MVP-calibre ceiling, DUH!

    Oh yeah, and stats are for suckers (apparently).
    Its honestly one of my biggest pet peeves with Bargnani... how Dirk's name always has to come up. He is 7ft, white, European and their country of origin was a facist state between WWI up to and through WWII (again ironically Germany was much more productive, efficient and deadly). After that, it ends.

    Statistically speaking Channing Frye is much more relevant. Except in terms of total shots ofcourse

  15. #6335
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    People keep comparing them because they don't watch Bargnani play. Every time I read an article where the writer tries to make Bargnani/Nowitzki parallels it's a smoking gun. I then proceed to press the X button in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

    Bargnani is a lot more talented than Frye by the way.

  16. #6336
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    People keep comparing them because they don't watch Bargnani play. Every time I read an article where the writer tries to make Bargnani/Nowitzki parallels it's a smoking gun. I then proceed to press the X button in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

    Bargnani is a lot more talented than Frye by the way.
    I think its pretty much the same why as when people compare Bargnani to another 7 footer, 250+lbs and is labeled as "Center" and expects him to do the exact same things as other 7 footers who play as center in the league.

  17. #6337
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't think its much to ask that the guy play hard on defense and in rebounding. Most people complaining about those two typically bring up effort and not inability. I'm not sure what his problem is there for sure but I think some of those criticizing him for it obviously watch a lot of Raptors basketball.

  18. #6338
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't think its much to ask that the guy play hard on defense and in rebounding. Most people complaining about those two typically bring up effort and not inability. I'm not sure what his problem is there for sure but I think some of those criticizing him for it obviously watch a lot of Raptors basketball.
    Agree.

  19. #6339
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im not sure if your comment was pro or con towards my post, but yes, Dirk's DRtg is lower by avg, my guess is, because he's always been paired with a defensive center. And yes it was 2002/03 when he got his best DRtg. What you forgot to post though was so did both Lafrentz and Bradley. That year was their best DRtg in their careers. Did it help Dirk? Maybe. Will it do the same for Bargnani? I hope.
    my point was what you said was incomplete. Dirk has always had a defense rating somewhere between average and good.

    Did Raef lafrentz and Bradley's defense rating help Dirk? Maybe. Or did Dirk's defense helped Raef and Bradley have their "best drtg of their careers"?

    Tyson Chandlers defense rating was right at his career average last year. Exactly the same as the year before when he played on one of the best defensive teams in the league.

    Chris Bosh's defense rating got worse every year Bargnani was beside him. Bargnani's got worse every year Bosh was beside him. When Bosh left his defense rating jumped to the 2nd best of his career (103). When Bosh left Bargnani's defense rating ended up being the worst of his career (115)


    There is a pretty amazing (although imperfect) correlation between Bargnani's minutes per game and his defense rating getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes per game and his teammates defense ratings getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes and the team's opponents FG%... at some point it can no longer be everyone else's fault. That there is one central issue making everyone else, atleast appear, worse defensively

    So will putting a defensive minded C beside Bargnani improve Bargnani's defense rating? I don't doubt it. And conversely Bargnani will also make that same defensive C look worse defensively.

  20. #6340
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    People keep comparing them because they don't watch Bargnani play. Every time I read an article where the writer tries to make Bargnani/Nowitzki parallels it's a smoking gun. I then proceed to press the X button in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

    Bargnani is a lot more talented than Frye by the way.
    I don't disagree that Bargnani is much more talented than Frye, but as it relates to tbihis and my discussion prior, he doesn't use that talent so in the end it makes no difference. Is not using a talent any better than not having a talent at all? In theory, yes as there is the possibility that talent could be used. In reality no, atleast as long as that talent is not being used.

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