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  • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    When others are willing to give him a chance to prove himself next to a legitimate center you quickly brush those arguments aside how come do you have any evidence to suggest that the raptors defense can’t improve with Bargnani playing next to a legitimate center? What have Ed Davis or Amir Johnson done to prove they deserve minutes over Bargnani and do you have any evidence to suggest they will turn out to be better players than him?
    look forward to your answers
    Can the defense IMPROVE with Bargnani playing next to a legit center? Sure. Can it become good? Probably not. Can it eventually be exploited, especially in the playoffs, limiting what the team can do in the offseason? Yes.

    Again, Bargnani is a good offensive player, but he's really not great, so I really don't understand why you're so desperate to find a way to keep him. If Bargnani was a better player, I can understand the desire to try and figure out how to make it work. But he's not. He's not an elite scorer, not does he score very efficiently. And the rest of his game is below average.

    As for what Amir and Davis have done, they've consistently worked hard AT BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. They both make a positive impact the entire time they are on the court. This isn't something I haven't said before.
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    • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
      1. Kevin Durant - Good rebounder, disturbing efficient scorer, on pace to be in hall of fame, decent defender.
      2. LeBron James - Best player alive.
      3. Carmelo Anthony - High usage player that doesn't score that efficiently, lack of commitment to defense, excellent rebounder. Positives slightly outweigh negatives.
      4. Dwyane Wade - Extremely efficient scorer, gambles on defense too much, but can be a GREAT one when he wants...otherwise he would not have made any all-defensive teams.
      5. Kobe Bryant - Greatest player since MJ, quite arguably even better. Made All-Defensive Teams like Wade. Noticably declined on that end though. He's still not a poor defender at all though.
      6. Amare Stoudemire - Poor defender, average rebounder 1/6, 3 if you wanna count KD and Kobe, I guess.
      7. Derrick Rose - Was quite poor on D before, is average now. The Point God.
      8. Monta Ellis - Completely right.
      9. Kevin Martin - Completely right.
      10. Dirk Nowitzki - Not a good defender, an average one. Worked very hard to get to that point.
      11. Dwight Howard - LOL
      12. Blake Griffin - Not a good defender. Likely will only be average.
      13. Eric Gordon - (Damn, the Clippers have a nice core) Undersized...I'll give you this.
      14. Russell Westbrook - Good defender.
      15. LaMarcus Aldridge - Good defender.

      Idk why I did that. Bargnani's offense (who also would be @ 16 on this list, btw) doesn't offset his weaknesses. The above players except for Ellis, Martin, sometimes Melo, and sometimes Amar'e do.
      Ellis and Martin are guards and Melo is a wing. You can live with their weaknesses on defense if you have a dominant big man to erase their mistakes. When your big man is the weak link, there is nobody to cover things up. Big men are the last line of defense.

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      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Ellis and Martin are guards and Melo is a wing. You can live with their weaknesses on defense if you have a dominant big man to erase their mistakes. When your big man is the weak link, there is nobody to cover things up. Big men are the last line of defense.
        Agreed. I just mean whether their offense generally offsets their poor defense. I would still much rather have average defenders across my starting lineup though. And all the players on the list are more efficient scorers, and far better rebounders and defenders than White Swan.

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        • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
          Agreed. I just mean whether their offense generally offsets their poor defense. I would still much rather have average defenders across my starting lineup though. And all the players on the list are more efficient scorers, and far better rebounders and defenders than White Swan.
          And far better play makers.

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          • Bringing bargnani off the bench is a solution too, he is a skilled scorer he could be used as a pretty deadly 6th man. But once again I think that if we get a defense first kind of Center, Bargnani can start at PF.

            I think the future is pretty bright for the raptors guys, we draft a very talented SF, we bring in a star/veteran big through free agency, with the development of amir, davis, derozan, bayless we have a nice core of young talent. I think this team is 1 solid defensive big away from being a good team. Id like to see calderon traded for a defensive PG though. Id like to see this lineup:

            PG Bayless/Defensive PG prospect.
            SG Derozan/Barbosa
            SF Johnson/top 3 pick/Kleiza
            PF Bargnani/Amir
            C Defensive Center/Ed davis

            time to ditch ajinca, evans, wright, sonny weems, alabi ... maybe keep evans for leadership and weems if we can keep them cheap as hell.
            Give 24-25 min. a game to all 4 bigs. We are stacked!
            "Defense wins championships."

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            • Unfortunately in basketball defense is almost impossible to measure on an individual basis. It is impossible to claim a person has improved their defense if your TEAM is last in defense in the NBA.
              It is almost easy in basketball to determine when a big is not allowing opponent to reach his sweet spots on the floor.It is a peace of cake to see if the man is blocking out to get the rebound(and IMO blocking out is like 50% of the work to get rebound especially if you're not super athletic,like Reggie -he doesn't get that many rebounds because he out-jumps the other guys,he blocks out and pushes and moves towards getting the ball).It is also it is possible to measure improvement when watching the games and seeing and comparing this year's performance on those things I mentioned above in Amir's game and in as someone called him earlier "White Swan" So to say it is impossible to measure defense is wrong.It is not exact science but you can roughly measure it enough so that you can understand Amir is far better defender and is improving in EVERY aspect of the game,not just scoring.
              Do you have any evidence to back this up. Again who would you rather have playing along side a tyson chandler?
              Yes,my evidence that he deserves is pure logical thinking concluded from the facts that I have before my eyes.So I rather have Amir with Chandler especially in playoffs.You can see the commitment in defense in the playoffs right now.Defense is vital when the top 16 teams are playing it and paying so much attention on it.
              Amir has been in the league longer than Andrea, it just seems hes only been in the league two years because it took an extremely long time for Amir to adjust to the NBA game. Offense is a HUGE aspect of basketball. Ask ovechkin what he does besides score 50 goals a year?
              Amir is the last player selected from high school.Ofcourse it is gonna take longer to develop.And did you compare their minutes per game in their first 3 seasons?Bargnani has a lot more playing time.Offense is as HUGE aspect of the game as same as defence and rebounds the same "HUGENESS" if there is such word.(I think not but you'll have to excuse my English).I don't know this ovechkin guy and I don't care about "GOALS".I live basketball.
              We all agree his defense has been sub par, so has the whole teams. As a result it’s impossible determine if one player is responsible for the team problem. Take the last game of the year as an example. Miami was resting all there stars. Yet our supposed defensive unit got embarrased by the likes of juwan howard and jamal maglore.
              I agree with you.I want you to know I am not blaming only Bargnani in raptors failures on the defensive end. We turned this thread in different direction.I apologise.And if Bargnani improves even slightly in everything beside scoring I'd love him on the team.I've just lost hope after 5 years that he will ever change or become better.
              Come on man Bargnani earned those minutes to think otherwise would be ignorant. He’s top 15 in NBA scoring that has to be worth SOMETHING.
              Bargnani didn't earn those minutes.He had them handed to him on a silver plate by Triano.Mitchell was benching him he didn't earn the minutes.Not the same case with Triano.It is worth that he is 15.It is worth scoring but I wouldn't play a guy who can do only one thing and not do it so efficiently.
              And Bargnani is not busting his tail off.When was the last time you saw Bargnani running to get a loose ball,or push under the basket for a rebound,or falling on the floor to save the ball?I admit he took some charges very well...but only remember 3-4 of those.
              So many are arguing here about Bargnani.Maybe we just have to agree to disagree.Some of use think he sucks to be on the team no matter what the managment and coaching does,others think he is great no matter what and think he'd be better with another centre and stuff...
              Last edited by footarez; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 02:51 AM.

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              • Bargnani is not a Franchise Player

                In my opinion, Bargnani simply is not a franchise player material as of now. We should stop wasting time trying to fix something that hasn't been working for the past few years. We have a young core of AJ and ED who are committed to give their 100% effort every single night on both ends of the floor. We should stop wasting time to bring in new guys to make Bargnani "looks better".

                Bargnani is a spoiled child on the floor. He doesn't need to worry about playing time on the court since his first day with the Raptors. He can do everything he wants on the floor even without playing defense. If I were Bargnani, I will keep doing the same thing - take everything for granted, do anything I like to do on the floor,including trying to score 1-on-1 on most of his processions which ended up hurting the team chemistry, since there's no penalities.

                Raptors should stop worshiping Bargnani. Bench him if he does not want to play D. Let him know that it's either show efforts or no show on the court.

                Hopefully it will twist his mind set and turn him into a real franchise player that we all longed for ... but maybe it's a bit too late since he already has a fat contract ...

                Thoughts?

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                • You're breaking new ground, Dino. Welcome!
                  @sweatpantsjer

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                  • I think our friend Dino may be on to something here.

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                    • Thanks! 've been thinking to join but too lazy to open an ID for myself

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                      • Keep in mind I am in favor of keeping Bargnani for at least another year when reading this post.

                        I never was a fan of Evans starting alongside Bargnani and the more I saw it, the more it annoyed me from both a Raptors fan's perspective and a Bargnani fan's perspective. Evans can neither score nor defend, all he can do (and he did it at a superb rate) is grab rebounds.

                        Although I don't have the data I need for a detailed post, I did stumble upon the Top Five-Man Floor Units on 82games this morning.

                        1. In the three units Evans played alongside Bargnani, the Raptors were outscored by 100 points in 267.3 minutes (a whopping 18.0 points per 48 minutes). Even the best of these units was bad; -8.2 points per 48 minutes
                        2. In the six units Amir Johnson played alongside Bargnani, the Raptors were outscored by 20 points in 728.9 minutes (1.3 points per 48 minutes).

                        The data for Bargnani and Davis is all over the place but that does not surprise me as Davis was a rookie and recovering from surgery. I do note Calderon-DeRozan-J Johnson-Davis-Bargnani had a positive differential when playing together (+1 in 54.9 minutes) and, in my opinion, will be the starting lineup we will see next year barring major trades.

                        It's a small sample size but considering Bargnani played well alongside Amir Johnson, it gives me enough reason to be cautiously optimistic.

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                        • Too lazy to quote, but Isaiah Thomas was a excellent defender.
                          @sweatpantsjer

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                          • footarez wrote: View Post
                            It is almost easy in basketball to determine when a big is not allowing opponent to reach his sweet spots on the floor.It is a peace of cake to see if the man is blocking out to get the rebound(and IMO blocking out is like 50% of the work to get rebound especially if you're not super athletic,like Reggie -he doesn't get that many rebounds because he out-jumps the other guys,he blocks out and pushes and moves towards getting the ball).It is also it is possible to measure improvement when watching the games and seeing and comparing this year's performance on those things I mentioned above in Amir's game and in as someone called him earlier "White Swan" So to say it is impossible to measure defense is wrong.It is not exact science but you can roughly measure it enough so that you can understand Amir is far better defender and is improving in EVERY aspect of the game,not just scoring.

                            The thing is you need to consider not only boxing out, you need consider the position of a player when grabbing an available rebound. The majority of games this year bargnani was forced to guard the pick and roll, while his defensive partner Ed, Amir, Reggie were locate underneath the basket. Logic suggest its much more likely you will get a rebound right next to the basket as appose to away from the basket. Again like I said it’s really hard to measure defense and rebounding because players on poor defensive teams often times focus on team problems, such as rotating helping out etc.. which leaves them less focused on guarding the basket and being available for rebounding opportunities.

                            Yes,my evidence that he deserves is pure logical thinking concluded from the facts that I have before my eyes.So I rather have Amir with Chandler especially in playoffs.You can see the commitment in defense in the playoffs right now.Defense is vital when the top 16 teams are playing it and paying so much attention on it.
                            Most teams in the playoffs have a scoring 4 playing alongside a true 5. Dirk, Bosh, Boozer, Aldridge, Gasol, etcc all these teams have legitimate stretch 4’s which are crucial to winning. Bargnani is ALWAYS an asset to his team on the offensive end. He spreads the floor and keeps defenses honest. His defense has steadily been improving if you discount rebounding .. his positioning has improved, he is more willing to take charges than ever before and he often tries (without much success) to help out his teammates.

                            Amir is the last player selected from high school.Ofcourse it is gonna take longer to develop.And did you compare their minutes per game in their first 3 seasons?Bargnani has a lot more playing time.Offense is as HUGE aspect of the game as same as defence and rebounds the same "HUGENESS" if there is such word.(I think not but you'll have to excuse my English).I don't know this ovechkin guy and I don't care about "GOALS".I live basketball.

                            How is coming out oh highschool any more difficult then coming strait from Europe without speaking a word of English? At least Amir was able to communicate with his coaches and not just nod his head pretending he knew what was expected of him.


                            I agree with you.I want you to know I am not blaming only Bargnani in raptors failures on the defensive end. We turned this thread in different direction.I apologise.And if Bargnani improves even slightly in everything beside scoring I'd love him on the team.I've just lost hope after 5 years that he will ever change or become better.
                            I think the defensive issue has less to do with Andrea and more to do with the team. If you put the proper defensive players around Andrea the team defensive will improve. Every team needs a balance between offense and defense. You can’t just put two defensive minded bigs in your starting lineup who provide no offense because it will become an offensive nightmare, which is why having a scoring big man is a huge advantage to any team’s success which is not measured by rebounding but WINS.


                            Bargnani didn't earn those minutes.He had them handed to him on a silver plate by Triano.Mitchell was benching him he didn't earn the minutes.Not the same case with Triano.It is worth that he is 15.It is worth scoring but I wouldn't play a guy who can do only one thing and not do it so efficiently.

                            Was he handed his 10 million dollar contract on a silver plate as well. You can’t fake talent or production at the NBA level. Colangelo and those who approve player signings don’t hand out money for nothing espcially the second time around. Yes his shooting percentage efficeny decreased from previous years but that is going to happen when you are constantly doubled teamed and have little talent around you. What I find interesting however is with the added defensive pressure and the subtraction of arguably our best player in Bosh he was still able to increase his scoring production which to me indicates his offensive skill set dramatically improved from previous years.


                            And Bargnani is not busting his tail off.When was the last time you saw Bargnani running to get a loose ball,or push under the basket for a rebound,or falling on the floor to save the ball?I admit he took some charges very well...but only remember 3-4 of those.
                            Every player has a specific role. Andrea is not paid to dive for loose balls or push around with 280 pounders. Its like asking the ceo of a company to generate income AND do the heavy lifiting. Most likely wont happen, nor is it efficient for the company since the ceo may risk pulling a back muscle and then who know which direction the company will go in. 


                            So many are arguing here about Bargnani.Maybe we just have to agree to disagree.Some of use think he sucks to be on the team no matter what the managment and coaching does,others think he is great no matter what and think he'd be better with another centre and stuff...
                            Well we can at least admit he sucks being a top 15 scorer in the NBA. So no matter what happens and what coaching does next at least we are certain of one thing, our team produced at top 15 scorer who doesn’t deserve to be here and should be traded.

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                            • i actually like bargs, but i hope he gets traded.

                              so people will stop f$%king whining about him.

                              Comment


                              • ceez wrote: View Post
                                Too lazy to quote, but Isaiah Thomas was a excellent defender.
                                Are you talking about Isiah Thomas, the Pistons PG? I was a massive fan of his and his biggest weakness was that he wasn't a good defender. He could certainly play defense, and he wasn't horrible, but defense was not his strong suit.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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