View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6561
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think one of the downside of Bargnani's so-called new found aggression is more fouls. I can see him trying to overcompensate and being too eager to chase the offensive player which could result in more fouls.
    Awesome... more PT for ED and Amir. lol

  2. #6562
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Couple things here:

    1) how do you "make something click" in a guy? How many different approaches were taken in hopes of getting things to 'click' for him? If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.... well isn't the idea of trying to find a way to get Bargnani rebound and defend (yet again) insane?
    Have you ever coached a kid and watched him or a team finally get something after months? Or have you ever looked at one of those crazy 2 faces in a picture for a long time without seeing anything then someone says, "Look there!" and it all comes together? How do you make something click and in Bargnani no less? I don't know. I don't know the guy. But I know what didn't work - coddling from the front office (bye bye Gheridini!), touchy feely coaching (bye bye JT!), telling him, "You're big, go get the ball!". To answer your question: you missed the point, they are doing things differently - no coddling, tough love, setting specific and achievable goals versus abstract concepts.

    2) the entire article was about Andrea. People (Yertu) responded to it regarding Andrea. How was Yertu responding to the things in the article that he didn't agree with 'hating'? How could Yertu have responded to the article without you considering it 'hating'? Would he just not have had to not respond or respond positively or by 'hoping' everything is will turn out? People clearly don't expect Andrea to amount to much of a rebounder... and Yertu's statement about people having 'lowered the bar 'in regards to Andrea's expectations is something I specifically remember you mentioning aswell.
    New statements and concepts from those directly involved with the organizations being responded with old arguments. The bar certainly has been lowered. The idea of 8 rebounds a game (plus a few others that bounce to him) certainly exceeds that bar in my opinion. That is certainly better than a C who just signed a 5 year, $64M contract who averaged 7.6 per game.


    3) I'd have alot more faith in the article if it came from ANYONE other than Doug Smith. While I think D.Smith is intelligent, knowledgeable and has resources above and beyond most of the media, he tows the company line like no other. Has BC ever done anything, of significance, that he has been critical of? BC could trade for Hedo again and Doug Smith would talk about how it should work out well for the team or atleast how BC has a bigger 'plan' and everyone should just be patient.
    I agree on Doug Smith. However, I do not think he would risk his journalist integrity to make up conversations. As for the comments, now you're just hating on poor ol' Dougie.

  3. #6563
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Picks would be good. Scola or Odom would have been pointless.
    Odom would have provided good cap relief next year and subsequent years as he had a non-guaranteed contract with a $2M buyout.

  4. #6564
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I laugh at how anytime there is something positive mentioned a handful of the usual suspects step up to try and discredit it. It is possible for a man to change, to turn over a new leaf. I have respect for hard workers, those dedicated to their craft. If Bargnani truely is dedicated now then I'll be 100% in support of him staying and I will cheer for him. The real question is, if hard work doesn't satisfy the Bargnani debunkers will anything? I think not. I think he could go out there this year and post a double double, play solid defense and that wouldn't be enough. No, it would have been a fluke or it would be because of Casey's coaching or it would be because Amir and Ed had improved so much they were making Bargnani look better than what he really is.

  5. #6565
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Odom would have provided good cap relief next year and subsequent years as he had a non-guaranteed contract with a $2M buyout.
    So you'd trade Bargnani for cap relief? I would try to get a little more than that.
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  6. #6566
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The real question is, if hard work doesn't satisfy the Bargnani debunkers will anything?
    Results.
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  7. #6567
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Define "results" in regards to your statement Tim. I'd like to know for future reference.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Define "results" in regards to your statement Tim. I'd like to know for future reference.
    I want to see it on the court. Bargnani working hard is great, but in the end it's how he does on the court that matters most. And that he sustains it. Working harder on defense is fine, but I actually want to see him make big improvements on that end, not just work harder. Grabbing a couple of more rebounds a game is fine, but I want to see a sustained effort on not only going after rebounds but preventing opponents from grabbing them as well.

    I'm not going to give someone a pass simply because they work hard. Otherwise Araujo would still be a Raptor.
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  9. #6569
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I laugh at how anytime there is something positive mentioned a handful of the usual suspects step up to try and discredit it. It is possible for a man to change, to turn over a new leaf. I have respect for hard workers, those dedicated to their craft. If Bargnani truely is dedicated now then I'll be 100% in support of him staying and I will cheer for him. The real question is, if hard work doesn't satisfy the Bargnani debunkers will anything? I think not. I think he could go out there this year and post a double double, play solid defense and that wouldn't be enough. No, it would have been a fluke or it would be because of Casey's coaching or it would be because Amir and Ed had improved so much they were making Bargnani look better than what he really is.
    We've been hearing this stuff about Bargnani for years. Every offseason there's some spin that he finally gets it, et cetera, et cetera. How many times do I trust the boy crying wolf before I learn a lesson? Not sure why you find the justified skepticism funny. It seems spot on from where I stand. First it was Sam Mitchell's tough love that was getting him to turn the coner (how many times did we hear that stupid diving for balls and rebounds story on broadcasts). Then the tough love approach was wrong and Triano's softer touch was the key (cue the Bargnani doesn't miss Mitchell reports ad nauseum). Now, it's Casey's motivational rock that has Bargnani transforming his game.

    We'll see. But count me as someone who has had enough of the moving goalposts on Bargs. Wake me up when he doesn't get winded in the first 3 minutes of a game and I'll start paying attention.

  10. #6570
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I want to see it on the court. Bargnani working hard is great, but in the end it's how he does on the court that matters most. And that he sustains it. Working harder on defense is fine, but I actually want to see him make big improvements on that end, not just work harder. Grabbing a couple of more rebounds a game is fine, but I want to see a sustained effort on not only going after rebounds but preventing opponents from grabbing them as well.

    I'm not going to give someone a pass simply because they work hard. Otherwise Araujo would still be a Raptor.
    Us fans had nothing to do with Hoffa leaving town Tim. Hoffa sucked, he had no talent. Andrea has lots of talent.

    Your reply is again vague enough so that if we come back to this later you can warp it into whatever you want. What if he plays average defense and improves to 7 rebounds a game, is that good enough for you? Please elaborate on what it is you're looking for. The reason I'm picking out you is because you're the most anti-Bargnani poster in here. I'd like to understand in exact terms what it is the guy needs to do to make you happy.


    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    We've been hearing this stuff about Bargnani for years. Every offseason there's some spin that he finally gets it, et cetera, et cetera. How many times do I trust the boy crying wolf before I learn a lesson?
    No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.

  11. #6571
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Us fans had nothing to do with Hoffa leaving town Tim. Hoffa sucked, he had no talent. Andrea has lots of talent.

    Your reply is again vague enough so that if we come back to this later you can warp it into whatever you want. What if he plays average defense and improves to 7 rebounds a game, is that good enough for you? Please elaborate on what it is you're looking for. The reason I'm picking out you is because you're the most anti-Bargnani poster in here. I'd like to understand in exact terms what it is the guy needs to do to make you happy.
    Vague enough? Excuse me? If you think I'm a stat milestone guy, then you really haven't understood anything I've said since I've been on this forum. What I want from Bargnani is for him to have a positive impact the entire time he's on the court. I'm not sure why that's so much to ask. I want him to not be a weakness that other teams can exploit in the playoffs.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
    No, you're right. Not exactly like this, but pretty close. I've heard great things about him in training camp before. I've heard that this is the year he's finally turning it around. I've already heard all of this. Maybe not EXACTLY like this, but pretty close.
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  12. #6572
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Vague enough? Excuse me? If you think I'm a stat milestone guy, then you really haven't understood anything I've said since I've been on this forum. What I want from Bargnani is for him to have a positive impact the entire time he's on the court. I'm not sure why that's so much to ask. I want him to not be a weakness that other teams can exploit in the playoffs.
    That's how I feel as well. It's not about the numbers, its about not being a liability half the time he's on the court - especially if he is to be given heavy minutes. For his salary it would be hard to justify giving him a 6th man role though.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
    I think you have too much faith that Casey is going to make a difference. Casey is practically a rookie when it comes to coaching.. and in the NBA with professionals who are making serious coin, that's an extremely difficult task. He did not turn Dirk into a defensive juggernaut, so I'm not sure why you would expect him to do that for Bargnani... and Dallas had much better players (Marion, Haywood, Chandler, Kidd) around Dirk than Bargnani has around him (Gray?, Magloire?).

  13. #6573
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Us fans had nothing to do with Hoffa leaving town Tim. Hoffa sucked, he had no talent. Andrea has lots of talent.

    Your reply is again vague enough so that if we come back to this later you can warp it into whatever you want. What if he plays average defense and improves to 7 rebounds a game, is that good enough for you? Please elaborate on what it is you're looking for. The reason I'm picking out you is because you're the most anti-Bargnani poster in here. I'd like to understand in exact terms what it is the guy needs to do to make you happy.




    No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
    You quantified 1 number, 7 rebounds... which is a well below average rebounding number (per 36).

    I can already tell you if you feel being below average is acceptable then clearly there is a significant difference in what is 'good enough' already.

  14. #6574
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    No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
    ofcourse we've never heard this stuff before:


    from his rookie year:

    After Bargnani and his teammates banged bodies for nearly two hours, Mitchell pulled the rookie aside. This was the type of aggressiveness he wanted to see, he told him. The next night in Utah, Bargnani was unrecognizable, nearly quad rupling his then-season average with 15 points.

    "From then on, he's played like a man," says star teammate Chris Bosh.

    LAST JUNE'S critics didn't expect such compliments to be lobbed Bargnani's way when the Raptors made him the first Euro ever taken at the top of the draft. At least not this soon. In spite of Dirk's dominance and the capable contributions of imports like Mehmet Okur and Boris Diaw, many incoming Euros suffer the indignity of being compared to high-lottery busts Darko Milicic and Nikoloz Tskitishvili. Twice-bitten scouts won't soon forget that, blinded by overseas hype, they once overlooked Bosh, Carmelo, D-Wade and Amaré for those two. So when Bargnani's name was the first one David Stern called, a common sentiment was, Who'd the Raptors leave on the table by banking on the next Euro-bust?

    The skeptics have been shamed. With a stroke as pure as bottled water, Bargnani is already one of the league's top sixth men and Brandon Roy's chief competition for Rookie of the Year honors
    Five of his 10 rebounds that night were offensive, and all five came after Bosh went off on him. Challenge him after he fails to grab a single rebound in a game, as Mitchell did Feb. 14, and get seven boards the next time out. Throw an elbow his way, as several opponents have, and you'd better duck. Unlike most Euro bigs, Bargnani yearns one day to set up in the post. He works on his inside game daily with assistant coaches and can't wait until he can regularly use his size advantage to exploit folks down low.
    Everyone has a theory about where Bargnani gets his toughness and unusual swagger.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3634182

  15. #6575
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    You quantified 1 number, 7 rebounds... which is a well below average rebounding number (per 36).

    I can already tell you if you feel being below average is acceptable then clearly there is a significant difference in what is 'good enough' already.
    My aim was not to quantify anything in my post. 7 was an arbitrary number I threw out there and also I made no mention of per 36. My number meant nothing, I was looking for Tim's magic number.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Vague enough? Excuse me? If you think I'm a stat milestone guy, then you really haven't understood anything I've said since I've been on this forum.
    I guess not seeing how you're his biggest complainer around here when it comes to his rebounding numbers. Come on now, you must have a number. If Bargnani was grabbing 10 boards a game we both know you would be only focused on his defense then.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    My aim was not to quantify anything in my post. 7 was an arbitrary number I threw out there and also I made no mention of per 36. My number meant nothing, I was looking for Tim's magic number.



    I guess not seeing how you're his biggest complainer around here when it comes to his rebounding numbers. Come on now, you must have a number. If Bargnani was grabbing 10 boards a game we both know you would be only focused on his defense then.
    ahh so the 'haters' need a number, but you can remain vague. Sounds fair.

  17. #6577
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I guess not seeing how you're his biggest complainer around here when it comes to his rebounding numbers. Come on now, you must have a number. If Bargnani was grabbing 10 boards a game we both know you would be only focused on his defense then.
    Bargnani's poor rebounding numbers are symptom of his poor rebounding ability. If he gets 8 rebounds, but allows opponents to grab boards in front of him and doesn't work for other boards, then the 8 rebounds he gets don't amount to much. It's not the number that make the impact, but the consistent skill of rebounding.

    And I've ALWAYS stated that Bargnani defense is his biggest problem. Always.

    It's not as if I criticize the guy because I don't like him. I have literally no personal feelings about him one way or the other. In fact, from what Ive seen and read, he sounds like he's probably a nice guy. I had the same reaction to Villanueva. He was apparently a really nice guy with great offensive skills but his defense was atrocious. And his rebounding was better than Bargnani's. I had VERY similar arguments about him when he was a Raptor, but fortunately he lasted only a year in a Raptor uniform.
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  18. #6578
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    ahh so the 'haters' need a number, but you can remain vague. Sounds fair.
    No, I can give you a number if you want one but you're missing the point. I'm not the one trying to discredit anything positive said about the player. I'm not making claims that he's a lost cause and that he should be traded right now. What I'm getting at is if Tim(because that's who I was conversing with about this) is so against him then put his money where his mouth is so to speak. Tell us what he considers acceptable so that there is no chance for a cop out later when all the cards are on the table. Strong words should be easily backed up with clear expectations and in the case of rebounding, quantified to some measure.


    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani's poor rebounding numbers are symptom of his poor rebounding ability. If he gets 8 rebounds, but allows opponents to grab boards in front of him and doesn't work for other boards, then the 8 rebounds he gets don't amount to much. It's not the number that make the impact, but the consistent skill of rebounding.
    Tim, you of all people must realize Bargnani couldn't half ass his way to 8 rebounds a game. I mean all over this board you've said he doesn't have the talent to do it and great effort from him can't make up for it. Based on everything I've read from you 8 rebounds would be a huge accomplishment from this no talent hack. And when you say 8 wouldn't be good if he allows opponents to grab rebounds in front of him, how many do you mean? I ask this because outside of guys like Dwight Howard and Reggie Evans, aka. the elite rebounders of the game, most decent guys on the glass lose battle from time to time in their own defensive paint. Nobody is perfect.

  19. #6579
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, I can give you a number if you want one but you're missing the point. I'm not the one trying to discredit anything positive said about the player though. I'm not making claims that he's a lost cause and that he should be traded right now. What I'm getting at is if Tim(because that's who I was conversing with about this) is so against him then put his money where his mouth is so to speak. Tell us what he considers acceptable so that there is no chance for a cop out.
    Why would you think I'd cop out?
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  20. #6580
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    Because nothing is good enough when it comes to Bargnani. The prime example of this is all the great words coming out of camp suggesting he's been the best player in camp and all you can muster is the same old same old hit campaign you've been throwing at him since... Always. I'm with you when it's justified but I don't get why you feel compelled to toss the guy under the bus because you heard he's working hard(from everybody) and that you heard he's the best guy in camp(from multiple sources). I think you'll cop out because this whole story of him doing well and you're first reaction to it perfectly illustrates that you can't see good in anything when it comes to Bargnani. That's my opinion, a guy who has been critical of Bargnani in the past, year in, year out when he's disappointed.

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