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  • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    bargnani's a HORRIBLE defender ... he averaged more defensive rebounds than Amir just sayinng.. if amir wouldnt be so foul prone he may have been able to avg 35 mpgg...
    Yes, Bargnani is a horrible defender. And yes, Bargnani averaged more defensive rebounds in 10 more minutes, but if Bargnani were coached by someone who would have held him more accountable on defense, he would have ended up playing fewer minutes than Amir. And Amir's minutes were not only limited by foul trouble, but by his back injury and to give more playing time to Ed Davis. In fact, Amir fouled at a career low rate this season, showing a massive improvement in that area. APer 36 mpg, Amir averaged 5.1 fouls, as opposed to more than 6 in previous years. Joey Dorsey actually fouled at a higher rate than Amir did.

    DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    now i know your making things upp.. 90% of the time? where are you getting this data ?
    And the 90% was an approximate number, which I thought was fairly obvious. The fact of the matter is that when Amir played with Bargnani, Amir would almost always check the more difficult offensive player. A fact that only you seem to dispute.
    Last edited by Tim W.; Tue Apr 26, 2011, 01:36 AM.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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    • footarez wrote: View Post
      I guess he meant Frye's rookie season when he averaged more than 2 off rebounds per game and was used as comparison of a big man whos style of game is mostly around the perimeter.
      Yes, I was looking at his rookie season.

      Really, no one is really disputing that a player who plays on the perimeter is going to get fewer offensive rebounds, but there's absolutely no excuse why he can't get more defensive rebounds. The whole problem with Bargnani is that he never tries to make up for areas which he is weak in.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
      Follow me on Twitter.

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      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
        Knowing this, why are some fans so desperate to try and make it work?
        Tim I feel bad for you (and not in a patronizing way) but you seem genuinely cornfuzed by those who seem really insistent that we can make Barg's work or should find a way to make it work. I believe I might be able to illuminate the situation for you. The majority of bargs fanatics (and I don't include Hugemenot, pronounced huge-me-noh en francais) is that they are of the opinion that bargnani's ability to score 20+ points a game, with his size and skill set, demonstrates that he is a more valuable player than your advanced stats/metrics demonstrate he is inefficient/ineffective. It doesn't really matter that you believe such people to be over valuing pure scoring numbers, nor does it matter that you use empirical evidence to support your position. Empirical evidence and statistical models despite their adherence to strict scientific rigour do not automatically become "true" even if we (you and I) believe it to be a superior method of determining "truth". Perfect analogies can be found in Climate Change discussion, arguments over how old the earth is (5000 years and we used to ride dinosaurs), or whether or not the holocaust actually happened. AND NO I'm not saying that bargnani supporters are also holacaust deniers just that if they are of the opinion that your statistical analysis is not as valid as their own perspective it is unlikely that more statistical evidence will change any minds. This isn't meant to be a criticism of your analysis, which I do believe to be statistically relevant and thus more reflective of the reality we live in, than some opinions of some of the more fanatical bargnani supporters, but you seem to be getting quite frustrated. If you accept the reality that the scientific method has never convinced everyone all at once of any one thing, and limited your debates about bargnani to those who will at least agree to argue from an empirical basis, like Hugemonet seems to be doing, you might not have to worry about losing your sanity. However, if you feel you need to be zealous (cheeky, I know!) in your defence of the superiority of the scientific method than have at 'er! You just may want to stop banging your head against the wall before your skull cracks!
        "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

        "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

        "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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        • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
          Tim I feel bad for you (and not in a patronizing way) but you seem genuinely cornfuzed by those who seem really insistent that we can make Barg's work or should find a way to make it work. I believe I might be able to illuminate the situation for you. The majority of bargs fanatics (and I don't include Hugemenot, pronounced huge-me-noh en francais) is that they are of the opinion that bargnani's ability to score 20+ points a game, with his size and skill set, demonstrates that he is a more valuable player than your advanced stats/metrics demonstrate he is inefficient/ineffective. It doesn't really matter that you believe such people to be over valuing pure scoring numbers, nor does it matter that you use empirical evidence to support your position. Empirical evidence and statistical models despite their adherence to strict scientific rigour do not automatically become "true" even if we (you and I) believe it to be a superior method of determining "truth". Perfect analogies can be found in Climate Change discussion, arguments over how old the earth is (5000 years and we used to ride dinosaurs), or whether or not the holocaust actually happened. AND NO I'm not saying that bargnani supporters are also holacaust deniers just that if they are of the opinion that your statistical analysis is not as valid as their own perspective it is unlikely that more statistical evidence will change any minds. This isn't meant to be a criticism of your analysis, which I do believe to be statistically relevant and thus more reflective of the reality we live in, than some opinions of some of the more fanatical bargnani supporters, but you seem to be getting quite frustrated. If you accept the reality that the scientific method has never convinced everyone all at once of any one thing, and limited your debates about bargnani to those who will at least agree to argue from an empirical basis, like Hugemonet seems to be doing, you might not have to worry about losing your sanity. However, if you feel you need to be zealous (cheeky, I know!) in your defence of the superiority of the scientific method than have at 'er! You just may want to stop banging your head against the wall before your skull cracks!
          ezz_bee, thank you (and also not in a patronizing way). I do understand what you're saying completely, but there is still part of me that thinks that, at some point, even those who deny empirical evidence will eventually see the logic in the argument. I think I just refuse to believe that people can continue to deny the obvious for very long. No, it's certainly not good for my sanity, but I gave up on trying to keep that long, long ago.

          And I agree that Hugmenot does not belong in the same category as some others, since his arguments are well researched and argued. Just for the record, though, it's not Hugemenot, but Hugmenot, which, I believe, is not french but simply a shortened version of Hug Me Not. I actually assumed it was french, as well, until I actually took a closer look at the spelling. Maybe the actual poster can enlighten us the exact meaning of his moniker.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

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          • Bargnani's Old Coach Messina Comes to His Defense

            ''Bargnani and 'grew from year to year, and' always improved. Did not deserve those piles of mud.'' Canadian criticism to the 'magician' is excessive and unjustified: word coach Ettore Messina. Andrea Bargnani has come under fire by Jerry Colangelo, president and general manager of the Toronto Raptors, after the negative closed season with 22 victories and 60 defeats. The long Roman, the first overall pick in 2006, ended the year with 21.4 points and 5.2 rebounds per game, often charging the attack on the shoulders of training led by coach Jay Triano. Conference in late season, Bargnani Colangelo called''the enigma of all enigmas''pointing the finger at the player, into a sort of scapegoat.
            Ah, wrong Colangelo dude but point taken.

            ''It does not seem right,''says Messina, who coached Benetton Treviso to Bargnani. Andrea,''says the coach-ADNKRONOS has always done better every year. I've coached, I know that person '. Has certain technical features, like everyone needs to feel at ease to do their best. Pull his piles of mud on him does not seem quite correct: in addition, we are not talking about a selfless young man. It 's a player who can stay in a dressing room and who knows what a team.''

            ''I respect the opinions of all and not let me go outside in detailed technical discussions. In principle, however, we are talking about a player growing. Andrea does not play for stats, play for the team but should not be too exciting to be part of a team to 20 wins per season,''says Messina.

            The 'magician' is related to the Raptors by a valid contract until 2015. ''I hope that Andrew is adequately reflected environmental and technical, in Toronto at this point it seems difficult to reconcile the relationship. The hope of finding the conditions to do better, and this also blue key,''says Messina.

            If Toronto really wants to sell the 25-year old Roman, the first move did not appear bright:''I do not see a genius in terms of communication and marketing, and sprimersi in this way on a player still under contract. Who was general manager of the year twice, one expects something more constructive. If they thought to stimulate Bargnani has not been found, however, a large ...''.
            Source: adnkronos.com
            Source: adnkronos.com (Google Translation)

            If only Messina could have passed on these "help defense" techniques to the big fella. Maybe he wouldn't be under fire now?

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            • Armstong: The kid gloves are finally off

              I found Bryan Colangelo's comments about him at a press conference last Monday to be quite revealing when he spoke about his rebounding and defence. Was I surprised by it? At this stage, no. Bottom line, when a player that you've bent over backward to try to nurture and bring along and develop and show support and patience with continues to frustrate/perplex you and puts your own livelihood on the line, you tend to say enough is enough. If Bargnani returns to the Raptors next season, he not only owes the organization, the fans, his teammates and himself a lot more, he owes Colangelo and Jay Triano greater commitment to everything being asked/demanded of him. He's been treated very fairly and at times they've enabled him too much. He has let them down. The "kid gloves" are rightfully off now and obviously should have been off way sooner. It's now or never. As a man, you look in the mirror and question yourself and what you stand for at this stage. Congrats to him on having a career year in points per game but how does it feel to be on a 60-loss team? Time to respond to the challenge. He CAN do it. Will he? Your guess is as good as mine.
              Source: Jack Armstrong's Blog, Raptors.com

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              • That pretty much sums up my sentiments to Bargnani exactly. It is put up or shut up time.

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                • Its Bargs or BC , and BC has the cajones now to bite the bullet and get rid of him. Now as for rebuilding all we need is Stan Van Gundy to get fired and maybe this team will be on its way to contention.
                  NBADoppelgangers.tumblr.com

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                  • I don't think Colangelo's comments have anything to do with guts. This has everything to do with being on the edge of the plank.

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                    • It is actually fun thing arguing about Bargnani especially if you don't have much to do at work lol .Thank you financial crisis
                      Tim W. and many try to give facts,and use logical thinking operating with the facts from statistics and observation from watching the games.Which is IMO the right way to determine whether a player sucks or not.Bargnani defenders tend to back up their opinion only with the fact that Bargnani can score(not so efficiently as they think btw) and they deny any fact given to them that shows he isn't what they think he is.And someone who actually knows the game should recognise that.Even if they are just fans who just watch the games(or I have a feeling sometimes just read the boxscore) given the arguments backed up with facts should see it only by using logical thinking.I don't believe most posters here are women(no offense I just read they are less logical...don't know if it's true but if you think about it.... ) so how aren't they seeing it?I don't get it how they don't see it therefore there is still a chance for them to be enlightened about that matter.

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                      • The "kid gloves" are rightfully off now and obviously should have been off way sooner.
                        That's what everybody on RR (and presumably other sites) have been calling for years. No special treatment and hold him accountable. Glad to see Jack saying this out loud, wish he had done it two years ago.

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                        • It's great to hear Jack say what every raptor fan has been thinking for years, but does it mean anything? I guess we won't know till next season but I'm not exactly convinced anything will be different.
                          "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                          -Churchill

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                          • Messina has a point, especially when he says, "I do not see a genius in terms of communication and marketing, and sprimersi in this way on a player still under contract. Who was general manager of the year twice, one expects something more constructive". This is one of the reasons I think BC has no intention of moving Bargs this summer, you don't publicly bash a player you plan to trade, you prop up his value with words like "potential" and "room to grow". The fans would have hated it but it would have mad it easier to get a good return, now other GM's will be expecting a clearance price. It is also a nice thing for to here a coach as respected a Messina talking about how good a locker room guy Bargs is. We have never really had a chance to learn about Bargnani's personality because of his English so it's nice to get a view of what his old coaches think of him.
                            "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                            -Churchill

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                            • Well I doubt he's spent many late nights watching his boy toy play against men in the NBA.

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                              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Hugmenot, I believe, is not french but simply a shortened version of Hug Me Not. I actually assumed it was french, as well, until I actually took a closer look at the spelling. Maybe the actual poster can enlighten us the exact meaning of his moniker.
                                It's Hug Me Not. I'm French Canadian, living in the States, and English is my third language.

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