View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6901
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Somebody needs to test that Primo, it may not meet league regulations.

  2. #6902
    Raptors Republic Rookie big_chris's Avatar
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    A players trade value doesn't goes up an down like the stock market. Teams interested in help at the 3pt line are not going to trade for Derozan because he is shooting better then 40% from behind the arc. Some major decisions involving our front court need to be made eventually, but they can be put off until after the draft.

    It would be like Philly trying to cash out Andre Iguodala. He's a really good player, but they are not getting a whole lot. He's well compensated. Major holes in his game despite being that caliber of player. Doesn't carry your team in the clutch. Teams want to add a guy like that to their core, not break up their core to add a guy like that.

  3. #6903
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Source: The Star

    So Bargnani checks out and the offense struggles. He's been criticized for not being able to carry a team on his own after going #1 overall but it seems this year his contributions have been resulting in the Raptors being far more competitive. I'm almost hoping he doesn't play Friday, just to see how the team plays in his absence.
    i don't doubt that they'll miss his scoring, but it's not like they haven't had poor offensive games with him in the lineup. and yes, i get that he's 'done his part' in those losses (i believe we used to call that 'stat-padding'...sure glad we don't do that anymore). the bigger concern isn't so much that he's out of the lineup, but that they're already soooo thin elsewhere, that picking up the slack will be difficult if he's out. but let's be honest, they've lost some doozies this year, so if they lose without him, it may just be a case of it beimg slightly more doozier...likely the biggest impact is that they have a CHANCE to win if he's playing (though they've also got an equal chance of being blown out, based on what we've seen so far), and likely little chance of winning without him (and a proportionally higher likelihood of getting blown out).
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  4. #6904
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    The top scorers are usually given the green light right away to take as many shots as they want as soon as they come into the league. With that said, they usually reach putting up their best numbers earlier. Bargnani was only given that opportunity last season. In my opinion he's just scratching the surface and still has plenty of room to improve on both ends of the floor.

  5. #6905
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    Default has Bargs peaked?

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Moderators please feel free to merge this into the Bargnani thread. I just wanted to start a discussion on this topic first.


    A lot of guys on the forum believe that Bargnani could be our franchise player. The way he's been playing the first 10 games has been a pleasant surprise. I still doubt if he can co-exist with a stud SF, but that's besides the point.

    Has Bargnani peaked this season? Is this season the best we will ever get from him?

    If we are a bad team now and are building towards the future, would it make more sense to trade Bargnani now while he has peaked before he degrades in performance?

    I found the following article today:
    http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012...-scorers-peak/

    It lists the average age that NBA top scorers have peaked. It shows that the average age is at around 25 years. There are some exceptions of course (Hakeem peaked at 32, Pettit at 29 and Robinson at 28), but for the most part a scorer peaked at 25/26.

    Bargnani is 26 this year. He'll be 27 next season and if he hasn't peaked this year there is a big chance he'll peak next year.

    The average number of years according to the article would be about 5 years. This year is Bargnani's 6th year.

    Is it worthwhile to keep Bargnani when we probably won't be a good team until 2014/2015, when Bargnani turns 29/30? I think Bargnani has been playing lights out, but I'm still not sold on him as a future piece for our core. If we trade Bargnani then we could move Davis into the starting rotation and try and land a better SF (or PG) or another lottery pick in 2012 so we can get younger assets that can grow together. Bargnani could play for another 7/8 years, but those years could be worse off than he's playing this year. Is that a gamble worth taking?

    I'm not blind to the fact that science and technology has improved since the 50's and 60's, so a player should be able to play longer at a more consistent level, but peaking and playing for a long time are two different things.

    I guess Bargnani has proven that he could be the exception to the rule. Play fairly lousy (ie, one dimensionally) for 5 years, and then play like he's an alien in his 6th year... so he may not fit the average nba'er - but I'm still worried that this might be the best we'll ever get from him.

    Thoughts?
    Some good points,however at this point I'm not sold on Ed....this might be his chance to show us something....Ed is great at put backs but his offence outside of put backs is so far a black hole.

  6. #6906
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Whether he has peaked or not I don't think trading AB right now makes sense. Colangelo and Casey have stated they are now building and not "rebuilding", so trading our best player for prospects, draft picks etc.. whom would have to be brought up to speed is probably not part of the plans. How long AB maintains his peak or stays and effective player will determine if a move is called for, but trading a player that has just hit his peak isn't what a team starved for talent should be doing.

  7. #6907
    Raptors Republic Rookie The Fox's Avatar
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    If this is his best, seriously that's not too bad is it? Lets celebrate that he's finally playing like a #1.

  8. #6908
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    we need a everything DeRozan thread
    hahahaha let the thrashing begin!

  9. #6909
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    i don't doubt that they'll miss his scoring, but it's not like they haven't had poor offensive games with him in the lineup. and yes, i get that he's 'done his part' in those losses (i believe we used to call that 'stat-padding'...sure glad we don't do that anymore). the bigger concern isn't so much that he's out of the lineup, but that they're already soooo thin elsewhere, that picking up the slack will be difficult if he's out. but let's be honest, they've lost some doozies this year, so if they lose without him, it may just be a case of it beimg slightly more doozier...likely the biggest impact is that they have a CHANCE to win if he's playing (though they've also got an equal chance of being blown out, based on what we've seen so far), and likely little chance of winning without him (and a proportionally higher likelihood of getting blown out).
    So now you're knocking him for performing even on nights where Casey can't get the team going? And on these nights you're saying he's padding his stats? Is he the guy calling the plays? Is he's the guy quarterbacking the offense? Is he's the guy who decides how many minutes he plays? I don't get it. It's not like he's out there going all "Corey Maggette" trying to get his at the expense of the team. I think you're grasping here, sorry.

    If he weren't playing this season they'd have the worst offense in the league. It's not his job to be play maker by handling the ball a lot and looking for the open man. It's not his game and that's perfectly fine. It's not his problem that they don't have a lot of strong scorers out there with him anymore or that they have a coach who's obviously not a great offensive coordinator. That falls on the shoulders of Colangelo and you know what? It's fine. They're rebuilding, this stuff is to be expected and they're slowly putting the pieces together. If you want strong defense then in most cases you're going to sacrifice some offense. So what is it Raptors fans, do we want the excitement of "Phoenix North" or do we want to see a winning product like... Dare I say "San Antonio North"?

    For a team with this level of talent, if a guy can enter the game and give them a chance to win on any given night, then that player is doing his job. I couldn't realistically expect much more out of Andrea so far. He's been outstanding more than not. I hope he keeps it up but we'll see...

  10. #6910
    Raptors Republic Rookie KingRaptors's Avatar
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    The TNT crew last night were talking about how players are who they are, and that player's don't change personalities.

    They also mentioned if your in the league 5 or 6 years, you are already the player you are going to be and that guys don't get better in years 7,8,9. Only one guy has ever done that - Steve Nash.

    So for him to call out the team as mentally soft really, you of all people are going to say that.

  11. #6911
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote KingRaptors wrote: View Post
    The TNT crew last night were talking about how players are who they are, and that player's don't change personalities.

    They also mentioned if your in the league 5 or 6 years, you are already the player you are going to be and that guys don't get better in years 7,8,9. Only one guy has ever done that - Steve Nash.

    So for him to call out the team as mentally soft really, you of all people are going to say that.
    No there are a lot more than Nash. Alex English is another prime example who comes to mind.

    Bargnani he never been accused of being mentally soft. He's been accused of being physically soft. He's been neither this season, he's the leader right now and so who else is going to say what needed to be said if it aint him?

  12. #6912
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So now you're knocking him for performing even on nights where Casey can't get the team going? And on these nights you're saying he's padding his stats? Is he the guy calling the plays? Is he's the guy quarterbacking the offense? Is he's the guy who decides how many minutes he plays? I don't get it. It's not like he's out there going all "Corey Maggette" trying to get his at the expense of the team. I think you're grasping here, sorry.

    If he weren't playing this season they'd have the worst offense in the league. It's not his job to be play maker by handling the ball a lot and looking for the open man. It's not his game and that's perfectly fine. It's not his problem that they don't have a lot of strong scorers out there with him anymore or that they have a coach who's obviously not a great offensive coordinator. That falls on the shoulders of Colangelo and you know what? It's fine. They're rebuilding, this stuff is to be expected and they're slowly putting the pieces together. If you want strong defense then in most cases you're going to sacrifice some offense. So what is it Raptors fans, do we want the excitement of "Phoenix North" or do we want to see a winning product like... Dare I say "San Antonio North"?

    For a team with this level of talent, if a guy can enter the game and give them a chance to win on any given night, then that player is doing his job. I couldn't realistically expect much more out of Andrea so far. He's been outstanding more than not. I hope he keeps it up but we'll see...
    I think the "stat-padding" was in reference to all the geniuses who claimed Bosh was doing so while in Toronto. It was nonsense then, and it's nonsense today.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #6913
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So now you're knocking him for performing even on nights where Casey can't get the team going? And on these nights you're saying he's padding his stats? Is he's the guy calling the plays? Is he's the guy quarterbacking the offense? Is he's the guy who decides how many minutes he plays? I don't get it. I watch the games and it's not like he's out there going all "Corey Maggette" trying to get his at the expense of the team. I think you're grasping here, sorry.
    no, i was taking a dig at some of our more fervent bargnani supporters who, in bygone days, would complain about a since-departed raptor 'padding his stats' in losses. i'm not knocking bargs, i've found his effort to be consistently impressive regardless of game situation; what i'm saying is that whether he's in the lineup or not, the team - as a whole - is so weak &/or inconsistent that his good play is often inconsequential in the grand scheme. so yes, missing him will hurt, but it's not as though they'd go from 5 pt favourites with him to 15 pt dogs without him. with or without him, i don't think the raps have much of a shot...but that's mainly because i think the pacers are simply a better team.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    If he weren't playing this season they'd have the worst offense in the league.
    maybe. luckily they have have him, and are at least respectable. sort of.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    It's not his job to be play maker by handling the ball a lot and looking for the open man. It's not his game and that's perfectly fine. It's not his problem that they don't have a lot of strong scorers out there with him anymore or that they have a coach who's obviously not a great offensive coordinator. That falls on the shoulders of Colangelo and you know what? It's fine. They're rebuilding, this stuff is to be expected and they're slowly putting the pieces together. If you want strong defense then in most cases you're going to sacrifice some offense. So what is it Raptors fans, do we want the excitement of "Phoenix North" or do we want to see a winning product like... Dare I say "San Antonio North"?
    i agree completely that casey's prime objective is to create a permanent defensive mentality/identity. but i disagree (at least somewhat) with your examples...there's no reason to believe that a team cannot be a good defensive team (which the raptors are moving towards being) and a good offensive team. no one's clamouring for PHX north (and to be honest, that whole idea was much ado about nothing). but using the spurs is a bit of a nonsequitor, since they could always score, they just made sure it was harder for their opposition to do so. a more apt example of an all-D, no-O team would be the bucks or kitties, no? neither option (all-O, or all-D) is appealing...need balance (paging demar...).

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    For a team with this level of talent, if a guy can enter the game and give them a chance to win on any given night, then that player is doing his job. I couldn't realistically expect much more out of Andrea so far. He's been outstanding more than not. I hope he keeps it up but we'll see...
    hey, me too. it's early, so there's time for development (if not improvement) from everyone. just hope those pulling the strings are cognizant of the past...
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  14. #6914
    Raptors Republic Rookie SandmanFan's Avatar
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    Not every single player on your team needs to " peak" offensively at the same time to win a championship. Its the right mix of old vets, young vets and developing bench players all getting together the right mix at the right time. When (yeah I said when) we win an NBA championship we will likely (almost certainly) have a rookie on the roster. He will not have peaked but he will be developing in a winning culture and learning from the starters to continue that legacy of winning. We might have a player retire right after the championship year but he was still a key piece of a winning team.

    Even if this is Bargniai's best year for scoring stats doesn't mean he isn't still valuable in the future.

  15. #6915
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    i agree completely that casey's prime objective is to create a permanent defensive mentality/identity. but i disagree (at least somewhat) with your examples...there's no reason to believe that a team cannot be a good defensive team (which the raptors are moving towards being) and a good offensive team. no one's clamouring for PHX north (and to be honest, that whole idea was much ado about nothing). but using the spurs is a bit of a nonsequitor, since they could always score, they just made sure it was harder for their opposition to do so. a more apt example of an all-D, no-O team would be the bucks or kitties, no? neither option (all-O, or all-D) is appealing...need balance (paging demar...)
    I'm not talking about posting 95-100 PPG, I'm talking about no longer posting 100-110 PPG. Gone are the days of "we need 100 shots". The emphasis now is on playing great defense and efficiently on offense.

  16. #6916
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Was David Robinson peaking when he won a title with Tim Duncan? How about Shaq when he won it with Wade? What you need to do is build a really strong team. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be better than the guys on the other side of the court. I don't think any GM in the league is operating with the mindset that they just need to gather 10-15 guys in their primes. No, they're thinking they need to gather 10-15 highly talent guys together who best fit the system they feel can win championships. That's my take on it.

  17. #6917
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Where is Tim now that we're actually starting to justify the Raps keeping Bargnani? hahaha
    I shouldve used this on Tim a long time ago, the "peak" factor.

    Also, i kinda noticed that the initial question was "has bargnani peaked?" and now the discussion is turning into "should they trade Bargnani now?"

    IMO, because i value loyalty and hardwork, IF Bargnani keeps this effort and hardwork up until the end of the season, i say keep him. I think its unfair to demand this much from your player and have him respond, only to dump him coz his trade "value" has gone up. I dont think thats the right way to reward a player, or anybody for that matter. But dont get me wrong, if the right trade presents itself (with the Raptors getting another franchise player in return) then by all means trade him. But to trade him for "potential" (draft picks, rookie) i think would be sending a wrong message to the other players, that this team has no backbone.

    I sincerely think that Bargnani can be a piece that the Raptors can bank on for the future (again, IF effort and hardwork is consistent). I would like for him to be a part of the core moving forward.

    Has he peaked? I say getting there. With his efforts this year, i think he has shown that he can still improve in other areas of his game. I think when his rebounding and assist numbers go up a bit, then maybe we can look at him and his "peak" factor.

  18. #6918
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    bargs is proving to be one of the most capable players in casey's new system.

    if i'm getting ready to go out... got a nice varvatos suit on.. tailored shirt... freshly pressed tie.. freshly polished brogues on my feet..

    i dont go "yo! this is all clicking and works well together.... but im going to switch up the shoes for some nike shox"

  19. #6919
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    bargs is proving to be one of the most capable players in casey's new system.

    if i'm getting ready to go out... got a nice varvatos suit on.. tailored shirt... freshly pressed tie.. freshly polished brogues on my feet..

    i dont go "yo! this is all clicking and works well together.... but im going to switch up the shoes for some nike shox"
    It's been done before (see Memphis trading Pau Gasol). I'm not necessarily saying I agree with the "sell high" mantra...I'm just saying it's not unheard of.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  20. #6920
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    But the Grizzlies didn't sell high. They're not a good example. At the time what they received was viewed as a total fleecing. Sure, now it looks good, but back then they were given a bunch of scraps and luckily out of that Marc Gasol turned out to be one of the best second round prospects of the last decade. There was absolutely no way they could have known what he would grow into then.

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