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  • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    This has already been discussed ad infinitum, so I doubt - even though it's Tim and it's about Bargnani - he'll feel the need to add much; it's an old debate.
    hahahaha i guess you havent known Tim that long!

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    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sport...5.storygallery

      1 Dwight Howard
      2 Al Horford
      3 Al Jefferson
      4 Nene
      5 Joakim Noah
      6 Andrew Bynum
      7 Marc Gasol
      8 Andrew Bogut
      9 Andrea Bargnani
      10 Brook Lopez
      Not a bad list - except right now you probably can't give Bynum away with his contract and injury issues and Bogut may never be the same player ever again.
      The best Raptors discussion board is at Raptors Republic.

      Stephen Brotherston, Pro Bball Report

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      • JoePanini wrote: View Post
        Game was really close in the 4th quarter, Serbia's 18 point lead was down to four. Italy are going to have a tough time in their group, but Sebia is one of the best teams in the group. Gallinari played decently, although he didn't score much in the second half. Belinelli was poor, with his usual shot selection. Can't wait to see Valanciunas' first game now.
        Gallinari scored 10 points of the first quarter of his first game and has really struggled to hit a shot since then. - Just like most of his team mates - Italy is shooting 35.4% over 3 games.
        The best Raptors discussion board is at Raptors Republic.

        Stephen Brotherston, Pro Bball Report

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        • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
          This has already been discussed ad infinitum, so I doubt - even though it's Tim and it's about Bargnani - he'll feel the need to add much; it's an old debate.
          You're actually right......I only need to add an example of Bargnani defending the weaker player is him defending Noah instead of Boozer. Boozer is the better offensive player, yet they both have the same PER. Bargnani consistently defended the weaker offensive player, but that didn't mean that player wasn't productive. He was just the lesser of two evils.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

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          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
            You're actually right......I only need to add an example of Bargnani defending the weaker player is him defending Noah instead of Boozer. Boozer is the better offensive player, yet they both have the same PER. Bargnani consistently defended the weaker offensive player, but that didn't mean that player wasn't productive. He was just the lesser of two evils.
            But in that instance, thats a Center guarding a Center. Nothing suspect there.
            Further to that, one could argue that having Ed or Amir guard Boozer, rather than ANY center in the entire league is not a bad idea.
            Ed and Amir are probably quicker than any center in the league; and better defenders than most of the 'Starting Centers'. In my opinion.

            While this isn't a defense of Bargnani, I'm simply trying to say that moost of the time, the power forward IS the better offensive player on the team. And generally it makes sense to have another power forward guarding that player.

            If you go here, you can actually see from all NBA Teams Depth Charts, that except for Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut and Brook Lopez, ALL centers are inferior to their PF counterparts on the Offensive. Now that is of course my opinion, but I think its hard to find any other instances where the Starting Center is the better man on that side of the floor. And I'm almost positive Andrea was guarding Lopez and Bogut when our teams matched up. Not sure about Howard.

            So to say that the Majority of the time Andrea was matching up against the weaker man on 'O' is actually true ... because he was simply playing his Check being the Starting Center.

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            • heinz57 wrote: View Post
              "Bargs is GSP" - good ol' Multi
              Bahahaha. Oh the memories.

              Wasn't King Bargs, 2Pac?

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              • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                But in that instance, thats a Center guarding a Center. Nothing suspect there.
                Further to that, one could argue that having Ed or Amir guard Boozer, rather than ANY center in the entire league is not a bad idea.
                Ed and Amir are probably quicker than any center in the league; and better defenders than most of the 'Starting Centers'. In my opinion.

                While this isn't a defense of Bargnani, I'm simply trying to say that moost of the time, the power forward IS the better offensive player on the team. And generally it makes sense to have another power forward guarding that player.

                If you go here, you can actually see from all NBA Teams Depth Charts, that except for Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut and Brook Lopez, ALL centers are inferior to their PF counterparts on the Offensive. Now that is of course my opinion, but I think its hard to find any other instances where the Starting Center is the better man on that side of the floor. And I'm almost positive Andrea was guarding Lopez and Bogut when our teams matched up. Not sure about Howard.

                So to say that the Majority of the time Andrea was matching up against the weaker man on 'O' is actually true ... because he was simply playing his Check being the Starting Center.
                And when the opposing center was the better player offensively, Bargnani would defend the PF, as was the case when Joey Dorsey started against Orlando because he had the strength to defend Howard, and when Amir and Davis tag teamed Brook Lopez, leaving Bargnani to mostly defend Kris Humphries.

                Bargnani only defended the center position when it was most convenient. Otherwise he defended the PF. It's further evidence that switching him to PF full time makes absolutely no sense, because he may end up having to defend better offensive players.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  And when the opposing center was the better player offensively, Bargnani would defend the PF
                  Well I just proved with the Depth Charts that only on 3 teams is the Starting Center 'Better' than the Starting PF. (obviously objective, but give or take one or two) And as I said before, I recall him checking Bogut and Lopez throughout the season. Didn't catch any Orlando games this year.


                  Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  Bargnani only defended the center position when it was most convenient. Otherwise he defended the PF. It's further evidence that switching him to PF full time makes absolutely no sense, because he may end up having to defend better offensive players.
                  But you never bother to actually provide ANY evidence of this.

                  As I just pointed out with the Depth charts, it would seldom be benefitial to have Bargnani guard the opposing PF, as they are generally (27 out of 30) the better of the 2 Big Men. So I'm not sure your point is being proven here.

                  And again, I very clearly remember Bargnani guarding Lopez on a number of occasions, as I remember thinking to myself its the sorriest 7fter vs. 7fter 'battle of the boards' I'd ever seen.
                  Last edited by Joey; Mon Sep 5, 2011, 01:33 AM.

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                  • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                    Well I just proved with the Depth Charts that only on 3 teams is the Starting Center 'Better' than the Starting PF. (obviously objective, but give or take one or two) And as I said before, I recall him checking Bogut and Lopez throughout the season. Didn't catch any Orlando games this year.




                    But you never bother to actually provide ANY evidence of this.

                    As I just pointed out with the Depth charts, it would seldom be benefitial to have Bargnani guard the opposing PF, as they are generally (27 out of 30) the better of the 2 Big Men. So I'm not sure your point is being proven here.

                    And again, I very clearly remember Bargnani guarding Lopez on a number of occasions, as I remember thinking to myself its the sorriest 7fter vs. 7fter 'battle of the boards' I'd ever seen.
                    Did you watch the games in London? Bargnani barely defended Lopez at all. It was almost exclusively Amir and Davis, so much so that even I thought Bargnani should defend him more, since he was the only one with the size to match up. And Bargnani didn't defend Bogut much, either (although a little more than Lopez). I'm not going on vague recollections, here. This was something I started to notice way back in November and made note of, because I thought it was an interesting fact. In fact, I was surprised when it wasn't really mentioned (although I did in my blog). I started to watch who Bargnani was defending because I wanted to see if the earlier cases were exceptions, but they weren't.

                    As for the depth chart, it's not entirely accurate. Pachulia is listed as the starting center for the Hawks, yet only started 7 games. Anderson Varejao started 31 games for the Cavs, including two against the Raptors. DeMarcus Cousins is listed as the PF, when he started half the year at center, with Dalembert coming off the bench. And there are a number of others.

                    My point is that Bargnani nearly always defended the weaker offensive player, and as you state, that was usually the center. So how is him moving to PF going to help him defensively?
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Did you watch the games in London? Bargnani barely defended Lopez at all. It was almost exclusively Amir and Davis, so much so that even I thought Bargnani should defend him more, since he was the only one with the size to match up.
                      A quick count on synergy: Bargnani defended Lopez on 11 possessions in London, Johnson defended Lopez on 10 possessions, Davis defended Lopez on 7 possessions.

                      And, again, like my earlier posts about this subject, this is just counting without any predetermined mindset. If the results were different I would post them. The stats just don't back you up on this Tim. Even if the count is a little off (I didn't view the possessions) it's certainly not the case that it was almost exclusively Amir and Davis. If you don't believe it, I'm willing to look at all the possessions and list them one by one.

                      This theory is, with the examples given until now, just not based on the reality of the games. (Give it up Tim!)

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                      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        My point is that Bargnani nearly always defended the weaker offensive player, and as you state, that was usually the center. So how is him moving to PF going to help him defensively?
                        It won't help. As I also stated, this was not meant as a defense of Bargnani.

                        What my point is, is that yes he mostly guarded the Center ... because he played Center.
                        Not because Jay didn't trust him guarding the PF, but because it just makes sense to have the quicker, more mobile Power Forward (Ed and Amir) guard the opposing quicker, more mobile Power Forward.

                        I think what this should be about is, can you find another instance where another Teams Starting Center is assigned the task of Guarding the Opposing teams Power Forward every night? It just doesn't make sense unless you have a Dwight Howard on your team, and can say 'guard the best guy out there.'

                        You may be right about him guarding the Weaker Offensive Player Tim; but I think its more just how cookie crumbles and not by design.
                        Last edited by Joey; Mon Sep 5, 2011, 02:11 PM.

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                        • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                          It won't help. As I also stated, this was not meant as a defense of Bargnani.

                          What my point is, is that yes he usually guarded the Center ... because he played Center.
                          Not because Jay didn't trust him guarding the PF, but because it just makes sense to have the quicker, more mobile Power Forward (Ed and Amir) guard the opposing quicker, more mobile Power Forward.

                          I think what this should be about is, can you find another instance where another Teams Starting Center is assigned the task of Guarding the Opposing teams Power Forward every night? It just doesn't make sense unless you have a Dwight Howard on your team, and can say 'guard the best guy out there.'

                          You may be right about him guarding the Weaker Offensive Player Tim; but I think its more just how cookie crumbles and not by design.
                          I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that when the Raptors did face teams with good offensive centers, Bargnani would be tasked with defending the PF, if he was weaker offensively. The games in London against New Jersey are the perfect example. Amir and Davis, despite being undersized and without the necessary bulk, defended Lopez for the majority of the game. Against Orlando, in January, Dorsey started and defended Howard despite both Amir and Davis being available and playing. Bargnani did defend Howard for part of the game, but only when Dorsey was out, and there were still times that Amir defended Howard when Bargnani was on the floor.

                          There's just too much evidence that Bargnani was purposely put on the weaker offensive player, whether they were a center or PF.

                          And it's why moving him to PF isn't going to make a lick of difference and may, in fact, have a detrimental effect. I know you don't disagree with me here, but I just have to say it. It's a ridiculous notion that Bargnani won't be as much of a defensive liability at PF when there are FAR better PFs out there than centers.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

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                          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that when the Raptors did face teams with good offensive centers, Bargnani would be tasked with defending the PF, if he was weaker offensively. The games in London against New Jersey are the perfect example. Amir and Davis, despite being undersized and without the necessary bulk, defended Lopez for the majority of the game. Against Orlando, in January, Dorsey started and defended Howard despite both Amir and Davis being available and playing. Bargnani did defend Howard for part of the game, but only when Dorsey was out, and there were still times that Amir defended Howard when Bargnani was on the floor.

                            There's just too much evidence that Bargnani was purposely put on the weaker offensive player, whether they were a center or PF.

                            And it's why moving him to PF isn't going to make a lick of difference and may, in fact, have a detrimental effect. I know you don't disagree with me here, but I just have to say it. It's a ridiculous notion that Bargnani won't be as much of a defensive liability at PF when there are FAR better PFs out there than centers.
                            Too much evidence?? Come on, Tim. You're using, what, 3 games as your so called 'evidence'?

                            And I'm not arguing about him being more effective as a PF. I've already told you that. I'm not sure why you keep going back to that.

                            I'm debating your argument, that he always defends the weaker player, by design. I've heard you use it many times, and I've never once seen you back it up with reeal evidence. Despite the fact that more than a few people have asked for it, and shown evidence toward the opposite.

                            As I recall, Bargnani was banged up quite a bit by midseason and had missed a few games off and on at that point. (He only played 25 minutes in the game you speak of, compared to 39 minutes the previous game we played against Orlando.)
                            You keep pointing to London, and yet SoftEuro has already pointed out that Bargnani guarded Lopez more than any one individual. And thats only 2 games. We played the Nets 4 times, and again, I remember very clearly Bargnani checking Lopez MOST of the time.

                            Again, I'm NOT arguing that Bargnani playing PF would make him better on defense or whatever.
                            I'm simply saying that I'm not sure its fair to use the argument you do when there's really no hard evidence (despite what you say) to back it up.
                            Last edited by Joey; Mon Sep 5, 2011, 03:46 PM.

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                            • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                              Too much evidence?? Come on, Tim. You're using, what, 3 games as your so called 'evidence'?

                              And I'm not arguing about him being more effective as a PF. I've already told you that. I'm not sure why you keep going back to that.

                              I'm debating your argument, that he always defends the weaker player, by design. I've heard you use it many times, and I've never once seen you back it up with reeal evidence. Despite the fact that more than a few people have asked for it, and shown evidence toward the opposite.

                              As I recall, Bargnani was banged up quite a bit by midseason and had missed a few games off and on at that point. (He only played 25 minutes in the game you speak of, compared to 39 minutes the previous game we played against Orlando.)
                              You keep pointing to London, and yet SoftEuro has already pointed out that Bargnani guarded Lopez more than any one individual. And thats only 2 games. We played the Nets 4 times, and again, I remember very clearly Bargnani checking Lopez MOST of the time.

                              Again, I'm NOT arguing that Bargnani playing PF would make him better on defense or whatever.
                              I'm simply saying that I'm not sure its fair to use the argument you do when there's really no hard evidence (despite what you say) to back it up.

                              11 possession for an entire game is what half a quarters worth of possessions? (ie. approx 90 possession for a game which is well below average for a team in a game), considering Bargnani played atleast 3 quarters worth of basketball I think thats evidence enough that he DIDN'T cover Lopez most of the time.

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                              • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                                Not because Jay didn't trust him guarding the PF,
                                didn't Jay say in the post season presser (when asked about Bargnani at the PF) that Bargnani should be a C on defense and not a PF?

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