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  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't get the sense, though, that Bargnani is lacking maturity.
    Really? The way he pouts when he doesn't get the ball at the 3? Or shuts down completely if he doesn't get the ball? The way he makes excuses for himself? The way he admits to being lazy and does nothing about it? None of that speaks to a certain level of immaturity to you?

    I think it really comes down to the fact the he is lazy, and to me, that speaks volumes about a persons maturity level.

    I think Apollo is bang on. With maturity comes the ability to realize the magnitude of ones actions. Or inaction.
    We've seen him grab tons of rebounds in games. It's not that he CAN'T do it, or is incapable of doing it. He's just lazy.

    Tim W. wrote:
    Someone who wasn't competitive isn't going to turn into someone who is really competitive.
    I do fully agree with this though.
    I've seen the competitve fire in Bargs before.
    Mostly just when the games actually mean something. Which hasn't been for a while.
    Last edited by Joey; Thu Oct 6, 2011, 03:51 PM.

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    • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
      LA may be a better defender than Bargs, but it is so marginal that the difference is invisible, if you ask me.
      And yes he's a better rebounder than Bargs as well, but he's no Reggie Evans either. Would he be just as good with the better-Rebounding Bosh playing beside him?
      Bosh has Career Rebounding numbers better than the BEST season Aldridge has ever had, and he's only a year older than him.

      And once again, at least with Bargnani and Bosh on the floor, one could step out and allow the other more space to work inside.
      Both Bosh and LA need the ball within 15ft of the net, to be effective. So neither of them is stepping out any further. Thus crouding the lane, and making each less effective.

      But again, I think Rondo would have been the best pick out of any of them.
      I would say Aldridge is a much better defender than Bargnani. Not that he's a stopper, but he's not going to actually HURT you on defense, like Bargnani does. And the thing about Aldridge, look what he and Portland did when Roy went out. I don't think you're giving him nearly enough credit. The guy is a borderline All-Star.

      As for spacing, you're talking as if every successful team has one big man who can shoot the three. That's obviously no true at all. Besides, both Bosh and Aldridge can step out to 15 feet, which leaves a hell of a lot of room around the court. Neither are guys that need to work on one block or the other. I don't understand how you could argue that spacing would be bad with those two.
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      • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
        Really? The way he pouts when he doesn't get the ball at the 3? Or shuts down completely if he doesn't get the ball? The way he makes excuses for himself? The way he admits to being lazy and does nothing about it? None of that speaks to a certain level of immaturity to you?

        I think it really comes down to the fact the he is lazy, and to me, that speaks volumes about a persons maturity level.

        I think Apollo is bang on. With maturity comes the ability to realize the magnitude of ones actions. Or inaction.
        We've seen him grab tons of rebounds in games. It's not that he CAN'T do it, or is incapable of doing it. He's just lazy.


        I do fully agree with this though.
        I've seen the competitve fire in Bargs before.
        Mostly just when the games actually mean something. Which hasn't been for a while.
        I don't think the guy is immature. I just think he is who he is. He's easy going. That's his personality. That's probably great for someone to hang around, but probably not the best for a professional athlete. It doesn't make him immature. There have been countless players like that over the years. I remember when Dallas drafted Sam Perkins, they kept waiting for this more intense competitor to emerge and it never did because that simply wasn't him. At least with Perkins, though, his defense was always good, whereas things like his scoring would be the thing that fluctuated. With Bargnani it's the opposite.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • And the thing about "seeing the competitive fire" in Bargnani, is that everyone can show glimpses of that. What separates people is the ability to do it consistently.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • heinz57 wrote: View Post
            i beg to differ.

            you can change your entire personality extremely quickly.

            cocaine.

            i've seen it turn many likeable people into complete and utter douchebags.
            Maybe Bargnani should start snorting, hehehe

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            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
              I haven't been younger than 30 in a long time. Far too long, it seems.

              As for Bargnani, to say he's got to man up is being way too hard on him. He's not Eddy Curry or even Turkoglu. He's not as lazy as some portray him, but what he doesn't seem to have is that drive that pushes some players to get the most out of their talent. I truly don't think it's laziness that is his biggest problem on defense. It's a combination of lack of instincts and lack of intensity (which is different from laziness). Both are incredibly difficult to change, especially for a 25 year old who's already been playing professionally for as long as he has.
              I dont think its harsh to say he needs to man up, and by man up i mean take responsibility. He doesnt need to be a stopper, but just a consistently good defender as you always point out. He's not lazy overall, he's just lazy on the help D, and yes he also lacks a little bit of instinct and intensity, but like i always say, he can improve on this, not drastically at first, but, and i cant say this enough, with proper training and coaching he can eventually be a good defender. If Kobe was able to tweak his shot and Tiger Woods adjust his golf swing, both using the same shot pattern since they started playing, im pretty sure Bargnani can do the same with his defense. And i dont think it has anything to do with age.

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              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                I don't think the guy is immature. I just think he is who he is. He's easy going. That's his personality. That's probably great for someone to hang around, but probably not the best for a professional athlete. It doesn't make him immature. There have been countless players like that over the years. I remember when Dallas drafted Sam Perkins, they kept waiting for this more intense competitor to emerge and it never did because that simply wasn't him. At least with Perkins, though, his defense was always good, whereas things like his scoring would be the thing that fluctuated. With Bargnani it's the opposite.
                I dont think he's immature either. We're looking at a guy who was treated like a basketball god in italy at a very young age, and from the stuff i read about him, he was trained to be a scorer rather than an all around good player. Thats why im always arguing the fact that he never was really opened to the idea of playing good D. And when the Raptors drafted him, it seemed to me that they wanted the same thing out of him, a scoring big. he needs to be pushed, and again, its not spoon feeding, its patterning the right type of training and coaching for a player's specific need. And really, you cant compare him to other players, that just because this player is this, then Bargnani should be this. Each player, to me, is unique. And every person adapts to different things differently.

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                • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  Really? The way he pouts when he doesn't get the ball at the 3? Or shuts down completely if he doesn't get the ball? The way he makes excuses for himself? The way he admits to being lazy and does nothing about it? None of that speaks to a certain level of immaturity to you?

                  I think it really comes down to the fact the he is lazy, and to me, that speaks volumes about a persons maturity level.

                  I think Apollo is bang on. With maturity comes the ability to realize the magnitude of ones actions. Or inaction.
                  We've seen him grab tons of rebounds in games. It's not that he CAN'T do it, or is incapable of doing it. He's just lazy.


                  I do fully agree with this though.
                  I've seen the competitve fire in Bargs before.
                  Mostly just when the games actually mean something. Which hasn't been for a while.
                  I dont think thats immaturity, i think its a natural reaction to certain situations. Its not positive reaction, but its not immature. If he skips practice or games to stay home and play video games, that immature. If he doesnt rebound because he says other people are not doing it, thats immature. To the lazy part, i agree with. Lazy when it comes to help D or rebounding. But not overall lazy.

                  I dont agree with the competitive part.
                  No human being is uncompetitive. It just varies in each individual the intensity of competitiveness and what brings this out in them.

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                  • I remember reading an article with one of the Raps training staff or coaches (can't remember who) about Julian Wright, at the end of the season. Basically the guy was saying Wright didn't have a very good jump shot because he had never needed to use it in college or highschool. He was always bigger, stronger and more athletic than the next guy, so he could just play around and above the rim (insert video of him missing a breakaway dunk here) Anyways, the guy was saying Wright needed to spend alot of time working on his shot, but didn't seem very confident that Wright would ever be an effective enough offensive player because of it.

                    I can see this applying to Andrea aswell. I imagine for most of his time playing ball, up to and including pro in Italy, he was bigger, faster and stronger than most of the guys he played with. His D and rebounding came from his superior size (and he was a very good size even at a young age when playing pro in europe). He also 'grew up' (for lack of another term) as a jump shooting big. Its what he knows because its what he's always known and was expected to do. Unless he ever decides to put in a concerted effort to change his habits, he will likely always revert to them.... much like we saw this past year. He needs to completely change his comfort zone and I for one am not convinced that he has the capacity to do that. Hell its not easy for any human to do that.

                    Quitting something is easy, not picking it up again is always the hard part.

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                    • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                      I remember reading an article with one of the Raps training staff or coaches (can't remember who) about Julian Wright, at the end of the season. Basically the guy was saying Wright didn't have a very good jump shot because he had never needed to use it in college or highschool. He was always bigger, stronger and more athletic than the next guy, so he could just play around and above the rim (insert video of him missing a breakaway dunk here) Anyways, the guy was saying Wright needed to spend alot of time working on his shot, but didn't seem very confident that Wright would ever be an effective enough offensive player because of it.
                      I saw or read something similar about Tyson Chandler once. It's one of the problems with the youth system as it is constructed now in America. Even teams with very young players are focused on winning (because this gets sponsorship deals for the coaches etc) instead of developing their skills.

                      But that's a different problem than the issue with Bargnani. His skills are not the biggest problem and the discussion here seems to revolve around his intensity. That is much more a personality issue which won't change (that much) anymore. In spite of the beliefs last century most of your personality is what you are born with and the influence of your environment in a very young age, that is, your very first years. After that, not much will change; you can learn stuff, but your natural personality is pretty much what it is. Bargnani won't turn all Kobe on us and get that killer attitude, he won't even get Reggie on us. He might be able to bring intensity for short periods of time (just like it is with most of us) but there is no way this will change. And frankly, because it is what it is and it won't change much, blaming him for not being intense doesn't make a lot of sense. Carter didn't have the intensity of Iverson who just kept attacking and attacking without caring about injuries (until everybody got fed up with it).

                      Skills can be learned, changing your personality is pretty much impossible other than learning how to deal with the negative sides of your personality.

                      Btw, I don't think there are that many players who have that mentality to be able to bring it every game on both sides of the court.

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                      • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                        I saw or read something similar about Tyson Chandler once. It's one of the problems with the youth system as it is constructed now in America. Even teams with very young players are focused on winning (because this gets sponsorship deals for the coaches etc) instead of developing their skills.

                        But that's a different problem than the issue with Bargnani. His skills are not the biggest problem and the discussion here seems to revolve around his intensity. That is much more a personality issue which won't change (that much) anymore. In spite of the beliefs last century most of your personality is what you are born with and the influence of your environment in a very young age, that is, your very first years. After that, not much will change; you can learn stuff, but your natural personality is pretty much what it is. Bargnani won't turn all Kobe on us and get that killer attitude, he won't even get Reggie on us. He might be able to bring intensity for short periods of time (just like it is with most of us) but there is no way this will change. And frankly, because it is what it is and it won't change much, blaming him for not being intense doesn't make a lot of sense. Carter didn't have the intensity of Iverson who just kept attacking and attacking without caring about injuries (until everybody got fed up with it).

                        Skills can be learned, changing your personality is pretty much impossible other than learning how to deal with the negative sides of your personality.

                        Btw, I don't think there are that many players who have that mentality to be able to bring it every game on both sides of the court.
                        Not blaming him... and I agree I doubt he will change.

                        And thats the exact reason why he is not worth the time or $ he consumes on this team.

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                        • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                          Not blaming him... and I agree I doubt he will change.

                          And thats the exact reason why he is not worth the time or $ he consumes on this team.
                          I disagree, but he should not be a first option and probably at most a shared second option. He should not be expected to lead a franchise; that's where it all goes wrong. But money-wise: remember, Rashard Lewis gets about double the pay Bargnani gets...

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                          • tbihis wrote: View Post
                            I dont think its harsh to say he needs to man up, and by man up i mean take responsibility. He doesnt need to be a stopper, but just a consistently good defender as you always point out. He's not lazy overall, he's just lazy on the help D, and yes he also lacks a little bit of instinct and intensity, but like i always say, he can improve on this, not drastically at first, but, and i cant say this enough, with proper training and coaching he can eventually be a good defender. If Kobe was able to tweak his shot and Tiger Woods adjust his golf swing, both using the same shot pattern since they started playing, im pretty sure Bargnani can do the same with his defense. And i dont think it has anything to do with age.
                            There's a massive difference between changing the mechanics of a shot or stroke and changing one's approach to the game. This isn't teaching Amir how expand his range and asking him to practice it through repetition. This is like asking Barbosa to suddenly become a PG. It's completely changing HOW he plays the game. Changing his instincts and mentality on the court. It's nearly impossible.

                            The problem with trying to change Bargnani's instincts is that he's already 25 years old. In basketball terms, that's close to middle age. Especially since he's been playing professionally since he was a teenager. The thing about instincts, is that you don't think about them. You react. It takes years to "get" instincts. This is why I liked Ed Davis. He had good instincts. Same with Valanciunas. Instincts are the hardest thing to change. And you're asking a 25 year old to change his after 5 years in the NBA.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • tbihis wrote: View Post
                              I dont agree with the competitive part.
                              No human being is uncompetitive. It just varies in each individual the intensity of competitiveness and what brings this out in them.
                              My wife doesn't have a competitive bone in her body. She HATES competition. So I disagree.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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                              • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                                I disagree, but he should not be a first option and probably at most a shared second option. He should not be expected to lead a franchise; that's where it all goes wrong. But money-wise: remember, Rashard Lewis gets about double the pay Bargnani gets...
                                so that now makes Andrea's contract good?

                                If I have a choice between 2 fat chicks, is the 300lber now hot?

                                Hardly logical.

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