Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Everything Bargnani

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ceez wrote: View Post
    its going to be awkward when he gets traded a week into the season
    he sooner he better, ed davis is far better than bargs
    "the raptors were my fav team growing up"-kevin durant

    Comment


    • knickz wrote: View Post
      he sooner he better, ed davis is far better than bargs
      The "t" isn't working on your keyboard.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
      Follow me on Twitter.

      Comment


      • WJF wrote: View Post
        We can get Andrea, but we can't get the Red Rocket?
        I believe Bonner is only interested in becoming Canadian when there is Canadian basketball glory to be had. Plus he only spent 2 years here, that may not be enough consecutive time.

        Comment


        • Bonner's Grandfather is/was Canadian, his wife is Canadian (obviously), he spends a great deal of the off season here as well. So him becoming Canadian is more legit than dodging taxes. He has a family history here. But yeah, it will be tough for him to become a citizen while playing in a US city. Not impossible, but difficult.

          Comment


          • ceez wrote: View Post
            its going to be awkward when he gets traded a week into the season
            lol

            Comment


            • tbihis wrote: View Post
              ...everybody's calling for Bargnani to improve his defense and rebounding, and IF he does improve this season, people are still lobbying for him to get traded. Im kinda confused.
              I guess for some people, Bargnani is such a poor rebounder and defender, that even significant improvements would leave him below average in those regards.

              IMO, being a good help-defender relies more on instincts than training. It's a trait that has never been part of Bargnani's game, and it's not something that can be worked on in the offseason, or in 1-on-1 workouts. And I don't think Casey's influence can make much difference either.

              As Tim mentioned, any improvements in Bargnani's rebounding/defense is more likely be temporary, rather than a permanent transformation of Bargnani's personality.

              Comment


              • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                I guess for some people, Bargnani is such a poor rebounder and defender, that even significant improvements would leave him below average in those regards.

                IMO, being a good help-defender relies more on instincts than training. It's a trait that has never been part of Bargnani's game, and it's not something that can be worked on in the offseason, or in 1-on-1 workouts. And I don't think Casey's influence can make much difference either.

                As Tim mentioned, any improvements in Bargnani's rebounding/defense is more likely be temporary, rather than a permanent transformation of Bargnani's personality.
                Well, IF he does improve significantly, and by significantly i would say 1-3 more rebounds on average, then that wouldnt put him below average. 1 additional rebound would put him in the Top 30, and 2 more would be him in the Top 20, and thats for both PF/C (based on 2010/2011 stats).

                I respect your opinion. And you could be right. But my contention with this argument has always been that players can be conditioned. There have been players who played a different sport till they were 15, got introduced to basketball and were trained to excel in the sport. Trainers and coaches are hired to train and coach every player. They dont "classify" players and train them only on one aspect of the game. If they see one guy has a need on one aspect, they train them harder on that. Thats how you develop a player's all around game, defense and offense included. If the Magic surrendered to the fact that Howard had no offensive instincts, would he have been the player he is now? Instead, they got Patrick Ewing to train with him.

                Comment


                • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  Two reasons we're calling for the trade of Bargnani even if he improves his defense and rebounding. Both very important.

                  The first is that even if Bargnani improves, there's no guarantee it won't be temporary. He's had a history of playing well in spurts, but it's something he's never been able to maintain. Eventually, most people fall back to their old ways. Bargnani doesn't have the type of personality that would lead me to believe he has the type of intensity it takes to change the type of player he is. I've seen way, way, way too many players in similar situations as Bargnani who have never been able to turn things around for more than a season. To me, it makes sense to trade him when his value is highest, and let someone else worry about it.

                  Secondly, even if Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding, will it be enough for him to be able to be the type of big man who can contribute meaningful minutes on a contender without being a liability on defense and on the boards? Amare Stoudemire is a much better rebounder and defender than Bargnani, but I still wouldn't want a guy like that on my team because he'll end up hurting you in the playoffs. Same goes for Zach Randolph and Carlos Boozer.

                  To win a Championship, in the NBA, you need to be a very good defensive team, and that usually starts with your front line. If you truly want to build a Championship team, it just makes too much sense not to keep a guy like Bargnani on the team.
                  Just want to make it clear that this argument is based on the fact that he improves. Coz if he doesnt, i too want him traded.

                  Im not sure how you came up with "history of playing well in spurts, but it's something he's never been able to maintain". I looked at his yahoo game logs from 2006 to 2011 and its pretty much consistent within each year. Well there are a string of games where he would score 20+ pts then one game he'd only get 15 or even 11 then couple more games in 20s. IMO, thats just normal. Players have bad games. Players get tired. Players get minor injuries that we dont always hear about (muscle soreness, stiffness etc). Again, same with my post before, if he's performing at his highest value, why not make use of it? If Amir avgs 15pts this year and he never avg that in his career, that would skyrocket his trade value, should we trade him coz he might go back to his below double-digit avg? If Demar avgs 35% 3PTFG this year, should we trade him coz that never happened before and he might regress next year? Instead of letting someone else "worry about it" why not take advantage of it?

                  See this is the thing ive been saying all along. The man cant win. We want him to improve his defense and rebounding, if he improves, will it be at par with the others. If he continues to improve and becomes at par with the others, is it enough for him to become a franchise player, if he becomes a franchise player, is he good enough to become an elite player, and it goes on and on. IMO, if he improves his defense and rebounding, a frontcourt of him and JV would be pretty good. Will it be enough to win a title? probably not. but if the Raps address the wing issue and by some luck acquire an elite player in the draft, demar avg 25/5/5, they get a really good PG, then yeah, title contention could be in the picture. But what im saying here is Bargnani is not the key to winning a title, he could be part of it, but its not just him who needs to improve but rather the whole team.

                  I too want this team to win a championship, i think every poster here does. But you, being a realist, should know there's no way theyre contending for a title anyways within the next 5 years, unless that cap space nets them an elite player or two and the draft gives them a potential elite player. The Thunder, who pretty much is what every young team is being patterned to, is already in Durant's 5th year and they havent even reached the conference finals. Last year was pretty much a fluke IMO. They went thru a melo-less nuggets and a gay-less memphis. Im pretty sure those series wouldve been different if those two played with their respective teams. But thats a whole different discussion.

                  IF, and again, a big IF, Bargnani improves, IMO, he can be an integral part of this Raptor team, possibly as a contender.
                  Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Dec 6, 2011, 06:16 PM.

                  Comment


                  • tbihis wrote: View Post
                    Just want to make it clear that this argument is based on the fact that he improves. Coz if he doesnt, i too want him traded.

                    Im not sure how you came up with "history of playing well in spurts, but it's something he's never been able to maintain". I looked at his yahoo game logs from 2006 to 2011 and its pretty much consistent within each year. Well there are a string of games where he would score 20+ pts then one game he'd only get 15 or even 11 then couple more games in 20s. IMO, thats just normal. Players have bad games. Players get tired. Players get minor injuries that we dont always hear about (muscle soreness, stiffness etc). Again, same with my post before, if he's performing at his highest value, why not make use of it? If Amir avgs 15pts this year and he never avg that in his career, that would skyrocket his trade value, should we trade him coz he might go back to his below double-digit avg? If Demar avgs 35% 3PTFG this year, should we trade him coz that never happened before and he might regress next year? Instead of letting someone else "worry about it" why not take advantage of it?

                    See this is the thing ive been saying all along. The man cant win. We want him to improve his defense and rebounding, if he improves, will it be at par with the others. If he continues to improve and becomes at par with the others, is it enough for him to become a franchise player, if he becomes a franchise player, is he good enough to become an elite player, and it goes on and on. IMO, if he improves his defense and rebounding, a frontcourt of him and JV would be pretty good. Will it be enough to win a title? probably not. but if the Raps address the wing issue and by some luck acquire an elite player in the draft, demar avg 25/5/5, they get a really good PG, then yeah, title contention could be in the picture. But what im saying here is Bargnani is not the key to winning a title, he could be part of it, but its not just him who needs to improve but rather the whole team.

                    I too want this team to win a championship, i think every poster here does. But you, being a realist, should know there's no way theyre contending for a title anyways within the next 5 years, unless that cap space nets them an elite player or two and the draft gives them a potential elite player. The Thunder, who pretty much is what every young team is being patterned to, is already in Durant's 5th year and they havent even reached the conference finals. Last year was pretty much a fluke IMO. They went thru a melo-less nuggets and a gay-less memphis. Im pretty sure those series wouldve been different if those two played with their respective teams. But thats a whole different discussion.

                    IF, and again, a big IF, Bargnani improves, IMO, he can be an integral part of this Raptor team, possibly as a contender.
                    I find it very difficult to feel sorry for Bargnani because he dug his own grave. If he'd shown any improvement on defense and rebounding since he was drafted, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we haven't. Even Bryan Colangelo has become publicly frustrated with him. The man is going to be making $10 million a season over the next 4 years despite not being one of the more hard working Raptors. How can you say he can't win? If it was any other player he would have been traded by now.

                    My question to you, is, if he does FINALLY improve his rebounding and defense so it is average this season, what makes you think he will sustain it? We've seen plenty of players over the years, who've been in the NBA as long as Bargnani has, who have shown temporary improvements, but 9 times out of 10 it's just a blip on the radar. Bargnani has never shown the focus or the sustained work ethic to make me believe he can change the type of player he is.

                    Think of a person making a New Years resolution to start going to the gym regularly. At first, many of them do. And there are certain types of people that will continue with it, but the vast majority can't sustain it. It takes a certain type of dedication and most people don't have that.

                    That's the big difference between DeRozan and Bargnani. With DeRozan, we've seen consistent and sustained improvements, especially in his weakest areas, in the two years he's been in the league. With Bargnani we haven't. DeRozan has shown a focus and determination from day one. That doesn't mean he's going to turn into an All-Star, but if I'm going to bet on someone to continue improving, it's going to be DeRozan for that very reason. He's got a drive that most players simply don't possess. Bargnani has never shown that drive.

                    Plus, even with improvement, I don't see him ever becoming good enough defensively NOT to be a liability on that end. And that's not something that is conducive to winning in the playoffs.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                    Follow me on Twitter.

                    Comment


                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      My question to you, is, if he does FINALLY improve his rebounding and defense so it is average this season, what makes you think he will sustain it? We've seen plenty of players over the years, who've been in the NBA as long as Bargnani has, who have shown temporary improvements, but 9 times out of 10 it's just a blip on the radar. Bargnani has never shown the focus or the sustained work ethic to make me believe he can change the type of player he is.
                      Actually, performance management theory predicts that if he DID make some changes to improve his rebounding/defense it would be relatively straightforward to help him maintain the effort with nothing more than positive reinforcement from his coaches, management and peers. You wouldn't have to provide negative reinforcement to punish him if he relapsed, just withhold any more positive.

                      If Bargnani is not trying, it is because he is getting more Positive Immediate Consequences for lack of effort than Negative Immediate Consequences. The coaching staff need to find out what motivates this guy, what he considers a positive consequence or what he would consider a negative consequence. Bad publicity back home is embarrassing to him? Feed reports to the Italian press about his lack of effort so he gets hell from fans in his home country. Does he like the coach to pat him on the head in front of the other players? Then lost of praise. Does he care what his mother thinks? Then get her down in the front row seats for every game.

                      Comment


                      • Puffer wrote: View Post
                        Actually, performance management theory predicts that if he DID make some changes to improve his rebounding/defense it would be relatively straightforward to help him maintain the effort with nothing more than positive reinforcement from his coaches, management and peers. You wouldn't have to provide negative reinforcement to punish him if he relapsed, just withhold any more positive.

                        If Bargnani is not trying, it is because he is getting more Positive Immediate Consequences for lack of effort than Negative Immediate Consequences. The coaching staff need to find out what motivates this guy, what he considers a positive consequence or what he would consider a negative consequence. Bad publicity back home is embarrassing to him? Feed reports to the Italian press about his lack of effort so he gets hell from fans in his home country. Does he like the coach to pat him on the head in front of the other players? Then lost of praise. Does he care what his mother thinks? Then get her down in the front row seats for every game.
                        But the question remains: Is Bargnani (now entering his 6th NBA season), worth this much babysitting? I know every player needs some sort of reward/punishment system to succeed, but in Bargnani's case, it would seem like going well above the norm would be required. Is he worth the trouble? I would say no.

                        Comment


                        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          I find it very difficult to feel sorry for Bargnani because he dug his own grave. If he'd shown any improvement on defense and rebounding since he was drafted, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we haven't. Even Bryan Colangelo has become publicly frustrated with him. The man is going to be making $10 million a season over the next 4 years despite not being one of the more hard working Raptors. How can you say he can't win? If it was any other player he would have been traded by now.

                          My question to you, is, if he does FINALLY improve his rebounding and defense so it is average this season, what makes you think he will sustain it? We've seen plenty of players over the years, who've been in the NBA as long as Bargnani has, who have shown temporary improvements, but 9 times out of 10 it's just a blip on the radar. Bargnani has never shown the focus or the sustained work ethic to make me believe he can change the type of player he is.

                          Think of a person making a New Years resolution to start going to the gym regularly. At first, many of them do. And there are certain types of people that will continue with it, but the vast majority can't sustain it. It takes a certain type of dedication and most people don't have that.

                          That's the big difference between DeRozan and Bargnani. With DeRozan, we've seen consistent and sustained improvements, especially in his weakest areas, in the two years he's been in the league. With Bargnani we haven't. DeRozan has shown a focus and determination from day one. That doesn't mean he's going to turn into an All-Star, but if I'm going to bet on someone to continue improving, it's going to be DeRozan for that very reason. He's got a drive that most players simply don't possess. Bargnani has never shown that drive.

                          Plus, even with improvement, I don't see him ever becoming good enough defensively NOT to be a liability on that end. And that's not something that is conducive to winning in the playoffs.
                          Again, ive discussed this with you before. Nobody feels sorry for the guy, i know youve read most of the posts about him here, everybody's frustrated with him. And yes, so is BC. But why do you think he hasnt traded him yet? IMO, coz BC knows, they havent done everything yet to get this guy to improve, otherwise, like you said, he wouldve been traded a long time ago. Now that "the last line of defense" has been put up (defensive coach, defensive center in JV) he has no more excuses. But IF he does improve, then BC would realize he shouldve done this in the first place.

                          I think one of the main problems with your arguments is you keep comparing Bargnani with other PFs or C, what if you reversed it. What if you questioned why Gasol cant hit the 3 when he's pretty much the same built and height as Bargnani? Why doesnt DeAndre Jordan have a quick first step when he has the same built and height as Bargnani? Every player is different. Doesnt mean they have the same built and height you expect them to do the exact same things. Bargnani is not your typical PF or C. Doesnt excuse him from defending or rebounding, but unlike other centers it wasnt his priority then, but it should be now. Im really not sure where youre getting that he's not focused or has unsustained work ethic. Ive never heard he ditched practice or sulked on the bench. Triano played him almost 40 mins a game last season. If he wasnt focused or didnt have a good work ethic, why would they even let him play? The problem lies in his knowledge of defense and rebounding. Get the guy a trainer and grind him.

                          I agree with the Derozan part. But i dont agree that Bargnani doesnt have a drive. He does. He just didnt focus it on defense and rebounding last year. And someone should nudge him to make him realize that.

                          Comment


                          • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            But the question remains: Is Bargnani (now entering his 6th NBA season), worth this much babysitting? I know every player needs some sort of reward/punishment system to succeed, but in Bargnani's case, it would seem like going well above the norm would be required. Is he worth the trouble? I would say no.
                            I dont think its babysitting. Its professional sports, athletes are given proper training and coaching to improve, sustained improvement and hopefully reach potential. I dont think its logical to give a guy 10mil an year and let him work on the kinks on his game by himself. Like i said to Tim, if BC felt that he's exhausted his efforts on making Bargnani improve, why didnt he trade him long ago? Coz he knows he hasnt, and this last ditch effort (defensive coach, defensive center) is, well, a last ditch effort. I really think he would trade Bargnani if he still doesnt improve this season.

                            Comment


                            • tbihis wrote: View Post
                              Im really not sure where youre getting that he's not focused or has unsustained work ethic. Ive never heard he ditched practice or sulked on the bench. Triano played him almost 40 mins a game last season. If he wasnt focused or didnt have a good work ethic, why would they even let him play? The problem lies in his knowledge of defense and rebounding. Get the guy a trainer and grind him.
                              I know where he gets it: from watching him play. Have you ever spent an entire game just watching Bargnani? I have. Multiple times. It's not fun. The guy has the defensive awareness of mayonnaise.

                              Look, the idea that somehow he hasn't been coached properly and that his knowledge of rebounding and defence are to blame is utter bullshit. Rebounding and defence are 60% effort, 30% awareness/feel and 10% technique. Bargnani lacks the first two, no denying it. Again, if you really doubt this, go back and watch some Raptors games from last season and tunnel vision Bargs.

                              Just to back that up, here's Hollinger's take from his insider profiles:

                              "The biggest challenge for Dwane Casey will be getting Bargnani to quit being such a wimp. His defensive stats are absolutely pathetic. Last season the Raptors were 6.45 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the court, while the year before the differential was 9.10. And that's the best set of numbers on his résumé.

                              Want more? Among centers he was last in both blocks per minute and rebounds, and sixth from the bottom in steals. According to 82games.com, Bargnani was savaged by opposing centers for a 21.1 PER; essentially, an average center became an All-Star at the mere sight of Bargnani.

                              Wait, it gets worse. Using regularized adjusted plus-minus, Bargnani was the worst defensive big man in the entire league last season. Technically, there are two different ways to do this method -- one here and one here; conveniently, both had Bargnani as the league's worst defensive frontcourt player.

                              The fact only three centers fouled less frequently gives you some of the cause for that effect -- the dude is barely trying. Nobody expects him to turn into Tarzan down there, but with his mobility he should at least be able to rotate effectively and cut off drives. More often he's on the weak side scratching his beard while an opposing guard is laying the ball in."

                              Comment


                              • tbihis wrote: View Post
                                I dont think its babysitting. Its professional sports, athletes are given proper training and coaching to improve, sustained improvement and hopefully reach potential. I dont think its logical to give a guy 10mil an year and let him work on the kinks on his game by himself. Like i said to Tim, if BC felt that he's exhausted his efforts on making Bargnani improve, why didnt he trade him long ag? Coz he knows he hasnt, and this last ditch effort (defensive coach, defensive center) is, well, a last ditch effort. I really think he would trade Bargnani if he still doesnt improve this season.
                                There are many other possible reasons:

                                1) he tried to trade him but had no takers
                                2) he tried to trade him but BC 'valued' Bargnani alot more than other GMs did
                                3) his ego won't allow him to accept his #1 overrall pick was unsuccessful

                                If Bargnani doesn't work out this year (if it truelly is a 'last ditch' effort)... the team officially has a white, slimmer, uninjured Eddie Curry. Simply not a risk I want the team to take... especially if the plan is to rebuild and create a new 'culture' with this team.

                                Ofcourse I've become resigned to the fact that Bargnani isn't going anywhere (see #3 leading to #2 and eventually #1) until he is an expiring contract. Now if Bargnani suddenly changes his approach to basketball that may not be a bad thing, or if Bargnani's agent gets a gig as a GM of the Phoenix Suns, that can't hurt either.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X