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  • The problem with Tim's example is that he's using an example of man with no integrity to make a parallel to a man who's lacked maturity. People naturally mature, they don't naturally grow a conscience. Bargnani's accountability issues have nothing to do with lack of integrity.

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    • Apollo wrote: View Post
      Those guys are rare and those guys might not produce anything more than the guy who needs his hand held, after he finds his way. I don't care how they get there as long as they get there. My point of accountability above, if he feels accountable he'll get his "blue collar work" done. Surely now he knows the only way to improve is to open his game to areas he's been disinterested in the past. I've never heard a coach mentioned such positives about his approach and his game during camp like Casey is now. They have a greatly talented player with a major flaw and it's well known. Best case scenario is Casey helps fix it to some degree, worst case he fails. Either scenario he can be traded if it's to the best interest of the club but the best case scenario leads to a better return. He should stay the whole season at least.
      Agree. i find it fascinating that somebody would reward a player who finally works hard and pays attention, BY TRADING HIM!!!!! Just so they wont miss out! I think thats sending a bad message to the other players. Much like Lamar Odom being traded, at first i thought he was just being a sensitive little girl, but when you look at it, the guy just won the 6th man of the year, helped you win 2 championships, and didnt even give him the courtesy to inform him he's being traded. OUCH.

      But hey, on the other hand, its a business. Thats what the professional basketballs has come to, a business.
      Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:36 PM.

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        The problem with Tim's example is that he's using an example of man with no integrity to make a parallel to a man who's lacked maturity. People naturally mature, they don't natural grow a conscience. Bargnani's accountability issues have nothing to do with lack of integrity.
        I guess i just said it using more words, hahaha.

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        • tbihis wrote: View Post
          Agree. i find it fascinating that somebody would reward a player who finally works hard and pays attention, BY TRADING HIM!!!!! Just so they wont miss out! I think thats sending a bad message to the other players.

          But hey, on the other hand, its a business. Thats what the NBA has come to, a business.
          I think the fact that he's turned the page in camp, the fact that he has a new head coach who specializes in teaching and getting production out of players in the areas of his weaknesses certainly warrants a season of review. Like I said, worst case scenario you're trading him in the off-season and moving on then. It's not like they're a perennial playoff contender who needs to add defense right now it they want to stop the Heat and beat the Lakers in the finals.

          This season is an audition for the "Dwayne Casey show". Those who hate Bargnani should want to hold on to him all season, I mean in their mind he's such a horrible player that he should improve their odds in the draft lotto, right?

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          • I'm in agreement with Apollo and tbihis.

            The excuses for Bargnani are just that - excuses. However many of them may (or may not) be valid. None of that really matters if he finally puts it all together. If he rebounds (and he has the physical abilities to do it) and plays defense (and he has the physical abilities to do) and starts playing a balanced inside-outside game (and he has the skills to do it) then he is definitely an all-star - maybe more.

            I wouldn't look to trade him then as punishment for the last 5 years. However if there is a trade to be had that makes the Raptors better in the long run, then I'd be all for it.

            Regardless what is in the Raptors best interest whether he is traded eventually or not is that he gets it - and the sooner the better.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              I think the fact that he's turned the page in camp, the fact that he has a new head coach who specializes in teaching and getting production out of players in the areas of his weaknesses certainly warrants a season of review. Like I said, worst case scenario you're trading him in the off-season and moving on then. It's not like they're a perennial playoff contender who needs to add defense right now it they want to stop the Heat and beat the Lakers in the finals.

              This season is an audition for the "Dwayne Casey show". Those who hate Bargnani should want to hold on to him all season, I mean in their mind he's such a horrible player that he should improve their odds in the draft lotto, right?
              Agree.

              But to some people, apparently, he's been through new coaches, new camps, etc etc so nothing to be hopeful anymore.

              Such negative nellys! hahaha
              Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:06 PM.

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              • He's never had a Champion specialized in defense coach him on his main weaknesses, defense. Sam Mitchell could have done more if he were allowed to but even then, he never had the experience or the polish that Casey has. Mitchell improved a lot by the end but he wasn't where Casey is now. I'm really starting to like Casey. I went from on the fence to in his court.

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                • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
                  Ehh... I still say that's extremely unlikely to "get it", let alone to improve enough to justify keeping him over Ed or Amir. I sincerely believe that, objectively, it's in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani.

                  I do hope that he improves, he was a fav player on the team for a long time. I was one of his few fans that actually stuck through that the now-or-never thing in his 5th season. But it's extremely unlikely he turns it around. To even get back to the level he was at before Bosh left is a huge leap.
                  And I think thats the next level of the discussion.

                  Is the risk of keeping/building with Bargnani worth it? Its taking time and opportunities away from others, its using up cap space that could be used towards someone else and its forces the team to atleast look at (or avoid) certain unique/different players in order to get a 'fit' with Bargnani... and that time/touches/money in turn could be used for someone else aswell.

                  So for instance, Reggie last year was a clearly there to compensate for Bargnani's lack of rebounding. But if the team didn't have to worry about Bargnani's rebounding then Reggie could have been traded for another asset. Or Reggie could have been given less minutes for Amir/Ed/Ajinca or whoever.

                  Then there is also a possible decrease in his trade value if his performance doesn't improve, or god forbid, got worse.

                  There is an opportunity cost to Bargnani's minutes/contract/roster spot/touches. To me, every year this team repeats itself, it not only has lost more but has increased the level of the risk they take. At some point its just not worth it anymore, and its time to cut your losses.

                  Its not as if he hasn't been given ample opportunity to 'prove' himself. He is no longer a rookie or 2nd year player trying to get a feel for what he is capable of or what he needs to do. He's finished 5 years in the NBA, and taken the same approach to the game since his very first game.

                  And ive said before, once the season starts, history becomes after-the-fact. No one really knows what going to happen during the season
                  and what would happen if every player was treated that way? Joey Graham was mentioned already, but what about Roko Ukic or Jamrio Moon or Mike James?

                  What if Roko had been given 6 years? Had the right players fit around him? I didn't see fans saying 'oh well the team needs to give him more of a chance', 'his history to date is meaningless because anything can happen going forward'. Yet Bargnani gets it time and time again.

                  Why is it that Bargnani gets 'special' treatment that the vast majority of the league (let alone Raptors) would never, and has never, gotten? I'm not talking about the organization here (I think that comes from BC's ego and his philosophy of trying to build a 'european' team in Toronto) but from fans? We've seen players come and go like farts in the wind.... yet Bargnani's has been allowed to linger and apparently smells a little sweeter than anyone elses has. Is it just because he was a #1 pick and its tough to accept the pick didn't turn out as expected (or wanting it to turn out)? Is it purely his scoring? Is it a European thing where he has brought in a lot of fans from Italy or Europe and they want to support their nation/continent?

                  I understand people hoping 'this year' (whatever year that may be) will be different. I don't understand how that argument doesn't eventually get stale or wear on people.
                  Last edited by GarbageTime; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:07 PM.

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                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    I'm in agreement with Apollo and tbihis.

                    The excuses for Bargnani are just that - excuses. However many of them may (or may not) be valid. None of that really matters if he finally puts it all together. If he rebounds (and he has the physical abilities to do it) and plays defense (and he has the physical abilities to do) and starts playing a balanced inside-outside game (and he has the skills to do it) then he is definitely an all-star - maybe more.

                    I wouldn't look to trade him then as punishment for the last 5 years. However if there is a trade to be had that makes the Raptors better in the long run, then I'd be all for it.

                    Regardless what is in the Raptors best interest whether he is traded eventually or not is that he gets it - and the sooner the better.
                    Its not about punishing anyone.

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                    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      I'm in agreement with Apollo and tbihis.

                      The excuses for Bargnani are just that - excuses. However many of them may (or may not) be valid. None of that really matters if he finally puts it all together. If he rebounds (and he has the physical abilities to do it) and plays defense (and he has the physical abilities to do) and starts playing a balanced inside-outside game (and he has the skills to do it) then he is definitely an all-star - maybe more.

                      I wouldn't look to trade him then as punishment for the last 5 years. However if there is a trade to be had that makes the Raptors better in the long run, then I'd be all for it.

                      Regardless what is in the Raptors best interest whether he is traded eventually or not is that he gets it - and the sooner the better.
                      Thank you!!!

                      Thats what ive been wondering all along, some people keep blabbing how he needs to improve, blah blah blah, and IF he improves, they still dont want anything to do with him.

                      Of course. If a deal comes along that would push this team to the next level and Bargnani is the casualty then sure. But to trade him IF he improves just so his value wont go down again is just hating. And personal, IMO.

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                      • I agree with Apollo and tbihis as well. I don't understand that idea of worrying about the past, when the sport only cares about the current season. IF Bargnani turns it around, then great for the Raptors and what difference does the past five years make to the team going forward? A devil's advocate could argue that had Bargnani turned it around a few seasons ago, the Raps may not have some/all of Valanciunas, Davis and DeRozan... haha, but I digress...

                        As much as I have been a Bargnani supporter, one of my biggest complaints is when he resorts to long fadeaway jumpers and 3-pointers. I am left with the thought that coaches are as much to blame for that trend as Bargnani - I'm not trying to make an excuse for him, it just seems like that's how the plays are drawn up. If the coach wanted Bargnani to focus more on post play, wouldn't the coach be pissed off and pulling him off the court if he ignored the coach's demands and continued jacking up long shots? As much as riding him for defense and rebounding, I hope Casey forces Bargnani to play inside much more often, because I think he is already a pretty effective post player - when he commits to playing inside. There were games last year where Bargnani would start out something like 3-5 shooting (all inside) with a couple trips to the foul line, then just inexplicably decide to abandon the inside game and I wondered two things: first, why did he decide to play outside all of a sudden; second, if it wasn't the coach's call to move him outside despite inside success, why isn't the coach plunking his ass on the bench?

                        I am curious to see how Bargnani and the entire team responds to Casey this season and am salivating at the prospect of adding Valanciunas and a stud SF/PG from the draft to the roster next year!
                        Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:17 PM.

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                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          I played hockey competitively for all my childhood and teenage years. I hear you on the element of fear. I've seen some "superstars" in practice look entirely different come game time. I think the key is to just hit somebody. If you start hitting guys, initiating the contact, it gives you a greater sense of control. It opens you up and replaces hesitation/fear with adrenalin and fire. Then when the hits are coming your way you're thinking or reacting as opposed to panicking or cowering. I know it's not always that simple but the mind can be your best tool or your worst enemy.
                          I completely agree with this, and I think its been a Raptor 'star' problem for a long time. Bosh, Bargnani and even Derozan to date. The guys who do the 'little things' to make a difference have never been afraid of getting down and dirty and risking contact (Reggie, Garbo, JYD, Antonio Davis) and the real superstars in the league have that very same approach to the game (they are just much more talented in other areas ofcourse).

                          I really want to see this team to start getting nasty. I don't care if they rack up the most fouls in the league... in fact at this point in time I'd love to see that. When any team or payer does not take or draw many fouls that just means they aren't trying hard enough.

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                          • tbihis wrote: View Post
                            But hey, on the other hand, its a business. Thats what the professional basketballs has come to, a business.
                            This "business" term has become a bit of a bad word moreso lately. Isn't it really about how one conducts ones self in the affairs of said business? With integrity, civility, fulfillment of contractual obligation etc etc?

                            The way I see that LA trade thing is that there was no consummated trade. Word of an impending trade got leaked. I dont know that the Lakers (or anyone else for that matter) was under obligation to inform any of the players that they were under consideration of being traded. Why upset anyone before the deal is done or for that jeopardize it. So, in that sense I believe LO is in fact being overly sensitive about the process. I dont believe the LA gm was being malicious or uncaring if that is what is being implied by LO. And yes I do think LO subjugated his game for his team.

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                            • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                              Its not about punishing anyone.
                              Then why would the Raptors look to trade him IF (and these are big IF's) he:

                              becomes more efficient scoring with a balanced inside out game,
                              starting rebounding 7.6 per game (that is Nene numbers),
                              is able to get his OppPER down to 16-17 range (that is David West numbers),
                              bring the effort on a consistent basis.


                              If he does those things, in my opinion, he is a bonafide all-star.

                              Comment


                              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                So, if your girlfriend constantly cheated on you, and cheated on everyone she's ever been out with, do you think you should ignore history and believe that this time it will be different? Or should you be forgiven for accepting that things will probably never change and move on? Which sounds more reasonable to you?
                                Maybe you should consider an open relationship and live happily.

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