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  • tbihis wrote: View Post
    Its not about if he improves, its already IF he improves, then what?

    I think you expected way too much of him during his rookie year and maybe Mitchell did as well. But thats a different discussion altogether.

    Nope, dont get another coach. Trade him. I think thats what everybody's been saying, if you were paying attention. If he doesnt improve, trade him. But if he improves, see how he fits, but if a better deal comes along, trade him. That what we've been saying, incase you werent paying attention.
    It's not just about IF he improves, it's about whether he can sustain it. And that's where personality comes in. Bargnani certainly has the ability to average double digit rebounds. Physically, there's nothing stopping him. He's even had some big rebound games. The problem lies with sustaining it over a long period of time. That's what separates players. The ability to sustain over of the course of a season.

    And I'm not sure why you though I expected too much of Bargnani during his rookie season. I actually expected very little. I wasn't talking about his rookie season. Bargnani's playing time actually went DOWN in his second season. And it wasn't until Mitchell was fired that he was able to get consistent minutes.

    As for your assertion that if he doesn't change then trade him, why is this time different from the other times? There are always excuses to be had. If you haven't noticed, there are plenty of people here who used to be a fan of Bargnani, but slowly got sick of him not progressing. For me, I wanted him gone as soon as he was drafted because he was a big man who couldn't rebound or play defense, and I don't believe you can win with that. For others it was after his second season, when he regressed. For others it was when he started the whole season beside Bosh and still didn't improve his defense or rebounding. For others it was after he became "the man" on offense and his defense and rebounding actually got worse.

    You can always move the "line". I've seen it moved many times.
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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      I've always said I didn't have a problem with how Bargnani scores, but that doesn't mean I think he's a good enough scorer to be a #1 option on a good team. That's where my problem lies. Not with him but with how people portray his scoring ability. And Bargnani's problem is that he's simply not a good enough scorer to excuse his defense and rebounding.

      It's like saying a woman is good looking, and then someone saying she could be a supermodel. There's a big difference between a good looking woman and a supermodel.

      Bargnani is a good scorer, but not great. It's not his scoring I have a problem with but the rest of his game. In fact, I have, in the past, defended how he scores. I've discussed how Bill Laimbeer had no post moves and took a lot of threes. I've brought up Arvydas Sabonis. The thing about those two was that they also defended and rebounded.
      I think youve said in the past that he's a scorer but not an efficient one. I dont know how that can be labeled as "defending".

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        And I guess you missed all the well publicized stories about how he was a student of the game and attributed his outstanding rebound abilities to studying game film, knowing his opponents, practicing hard and working hard in game situations? You'll never hear Rodman tell anyone he's naturally a good rebounder. He takes pride the fact that he earned it. He's a shining example of what can happen when someone commits to being great at something. I don't think for a second Bargnani will ever be able to rebound like Rodman but I do believe that if he's matured, like it seems he has and what Casey is saying is the truth then Bargnani can become at least adequate in his weak areas. We'll have a decent idea by the end of the season. You can't fake defense and you can't fake grabbing rebounds. This isn't Hollywood.
        Yes, I've read and heard him talk about how he became such a great rebounder. But he's also naturally a very good rebounder because he's a hustler. That's his personality. Take a look at his college stats. He averaged 15.7 rpg over the course of his college career.

        I'm not suggesting that rebounding well doesn't require hard work. I'm suggesting that you need to have a penchant for rebounding to being with.

        Besides, rebounding is only part of Bargnani's problem. And he's got a LONG way to go to be adequate on defense.
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        • tbihis wrote: View Post
          See this is why i like discussing with Nilanka, you can always argue, but there's always this kicker in the end that seems to say "we kick each other in the face, but we're still all friends!" that i like. let bygones be bygones.
          Amen.

          I said something similar in a thread last week, that I enjoy the discussion and differing opinions (my god wouldn't it be boring if we all agreed about every detail about everything Raptors???) posed by fans here on RR. I definitely have my own opinions (just ask my wife!) and I enjoy posting them and backing them up with the logic/rationale as to why I arrived at those opinions, but I'm never expecting/trying to change anybody else's mind. I don't think I'm right, I just know I have a valid opinion that is undoubtedly shared by at least some portion of the Raptors fan base. Regardless whether I'm 'righter' or 'wronger' than any other posters, I enjoy the discussion and debate among passionate fans - when done respectfully.

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          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
            It's not just about IF he improves, it's about whether he can sustain it. And that's where personality comes in. Bargnani certainly has the ability to average double digit rebounds. Physically, there's nothing stopping him. He's even had some big rebound games. The problem lies with sustaining it over a long period of time. That's what separates players. The ability to sustain over of the course of a season.

            And I'm not sure why you though I expected too much of Bargnani during his rookie season. I actually expected very little. I wasn't talking about his rookie season. Bargnani's playing time actually went DOWN in his second season. And it wasn't until Mitchell was fired that he was able to get consistent minutes.

            As for your assertion that if he doesn't change then trade him, why is this time different from the other times? There are always excuses to be had. If you haven't noticed, there are plenty of people here who used to be a fan of Bargnani, but slowly got sick of him not progressing. For me, I wanted him gone as soon as he was drafted because he was a big man who couldn't rebound or play defense, and I don't believe you can win with that. For others it was after his second season, when he regressed. For others it was when he started the whole season beside Bosh and still didn't improve his defense or rebounding. For others it was after he became "the man" on offense and his defense and rebounding actually got worse.

            You can always move the "line". I've seen it moved many times.
            Well, i dont know how you can say he wont be able to "sustain" it if he improves. Didnt you say before that he's never shown improvement the past 5 years? Where are you basing that he cant "sustain" it when youve said you havent seen him improve? Personality? You just said you dont listen to interviews, how can you know a players personality by just watching him move? Some people who walk or move slow doesnt me theyre slow in the head. You can tell a lot about a person's personality when he talks.

            Well, he went from 25 to 23. not that significant to me. It wasnt like he was the franchise player that time or a Kobe or John Wall that they expected massive production from, and they had Rasho who was pretty much play well as well. And i dont deny the fact that Mitchell did discipline him, im sure he did but can you really compare a sophomore Bargnani to the now Bargnani?

            I too think it would have been a lot better for the team if he was moved after he was drafted, heck, it probably would have been better if he was never drafted by the Raptors. But unfortunately they did, and things that transpired after are what they are now. Again, we're not saying he will improve, its IF he improves. You want to trade him, some of us dont. So you can keep drawing as many lines as you want, ill keep moving them if he keeps improving.

            Comment


            • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
              I didn't miss the boat Apollo... you decided to change the route mid journey and then get back on course when I jumped off.

              I think you need to read what I've been saying again.
              I sense a communication breakdown. An excerpt from a post I've been talking about:

              GarbageTime wrote: View Post
              And I think thats the next level of the discussion.

              Is the risk of keeping/building with Bargnani worth it? Its taking time and opportunities away from others, its using up cap space that could be used towards someone else and its forces the team to atleast look at (or avoid) certain unique/different players in order to get a 'fit' with Bargnani... and that time/touches/money in turn could be used for someone else aswell.

              So for instance, Reggie last year was a clearly there to compensate for Bargnani's lack of rebounding. But if the team didn't have to worry about Bargnani's rebounding then Reggie could have been traded for another asset. Or Reggie could have been given less minutes for Amir/Ed/Ajinca or whoever.

              Matt commented and then I followed up with this post:

              Apollo wrote: View Post
              He doesn't even want to contemplate the possibility. Most of what I'm reading is about bringing guys in to shield Bargnani's weaknesses as opposed to bringing in the best guys available to help the whole team. Well, in the scenario we're talking about Bargnani's weakness are far less or gone. This is what GT is missing.

              That's above is what I posted after reading what you were saying.


              GarbageTime wrote: View Post
              Never have I said that I, or anyone, wouldn't support Bargnani IF he changed. It was you who said people wouldn't if he did.
              I never said you said you wouldn't support it. I said you didn't seem to be contemplating it or following the natural path of the conversation in this particular thread, which was assuming Bargnani did get it, what do we do? Not to mention when do we know when to trade him if he doesn't seem to be getting it? Also, when do you know for sure he's not going to get it given the new variables? (ie: maturity, good coach, etc.). We weren't talking about how Colangelo has built teams around him because it was irrelevant to the particular discussion. Colangelo won't need to if he Bargnani gets it and if he doesn't get it he's gone.

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              • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                GarbageTime touched on this. By waiting another year on Bargnani, we're taking some minutes away from both Davis and Amir. Shouldn't that loss be taken into the discussion? Wouldn't Davis and Amir's development be expedited if we weren't still holding out hope for Bargnani.

                And no matter how much it's discussed, I just can't understand how some people can dismiss 5 years of evidence so easily. 5 years is a very, very, very long time. Historical evidence should be the highest weighted factor when judging a player's worth. Everything else is just guess work...and guessing is no way to run a successful business.

                But at the end of the day, we can all agree on one thing. No matter which side of the fence you sit on, we're all very passionate Raptor fans
                If Bargnani can get Nene-like rebounding numbers and West-like defense at the PF, then I'd take him any day over Davis or Amir.

                But he is not there yet so given the choice TODAY give me Amir or Davis.

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                • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                  Bargnani's 'bar' for rebounding (or defense) should be no less than what one expects for any other 'average' player. Averaging 9-10 rebounds a game (over 36 minutes) is actually quite average for a big in the NBA. The one thing most big men are lacking to achieve that is getting enough minutes to do it.
                  Just like I don't hold a 3-point specialist to the same overall shooting percentage as a player who takes the majority of his shots from very close (think Aaron Gray for example), I don't expect a big who plays away from the basket on the offensive end to grab offensive rebounds at the same rate as the average big who plays closer to the basket.

                  Take Dirk Nowitski for example. Dirk has a 5:1 DR:OR ratio and despite him averaging 7.0 rebounds per game last year (7.3 rebounds per 36 minutes), he still grabbed defensive rebounds at a rate 20% higher than the rate of the average power forward. That's pretty significant in my oopnion and yet, he is a very poor rebounder for a big man according to the bar you set (about he would need to increase his rebounding rate by about 25% to meet it).

                  So, simnple question, how would you rate Dirk Nowitzski as a rebounder?

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                  • Andrea Bargniani is (as far as we currently know) an unbalanced player - heavy offence, poor defence. We better get rid of him!

                    Here's another unbalanced player: Reggie Evans - heavy defence, miserable offence. We better.... sign him up!!!

                    Bargs continues to get another chance because he really brings something unique to the court - his size and scoring ability make him very difficult to defend. Other players have not had so many chances because they had neither great O nor great D. They were overall mediocre players not showing signs of improvement.

                    Comment


                    • And no matter how much it's discussed, I just can't understand how some people can dismiss 5 years of evidence so easily. 5 years is a very, very, very long time. Historical evidence should be the highest weighted factor when judging a player's worth. Everything else is just guess work...and guessing is no way to run a successful business.
                      and this is what I don't get and simply will never get. Why people want to totally dismiss what is known for what is unknown.

                      I'm not begrudging people hoping for the best. By all means people can believe what they want to believe, hope for what they want to hope for, wish for whatever they like.

                      But the question shouldn't be what 'can' happen. Anything 'can' happen. Amir Johnson may average 40 points a game. Jerryd Bayless can become the best PG to ever play the game. Kleiza could dribble the ball without turning it over. The question needs to be what do we reasonably expect to happen or what will be the most likely result? There is more reason to believe that Bargnani will be who he has always been rather than suddenly do all the things well he never has in the past. That hardly means anyone will want him traded/moved/benched or whatever if he does do change those things. It simply means that the 'haters' aren't expecting it to happen and aren't expecting it to be a long term change.

                      As I said before there is an opportunity cost to 'hoping' he'll change. Its one thing to hope it will happen, its a whole other thing to use up resources and opportunities while hoping it does.

                      To go along with Nilanka statement on guess work being bad business, there is this investing idea called the hope trade. Where people start to invest in the markets in hope that things will get better. Its not based in fundamentals, its not based on technicals, its not based on market swings, its not based on new market information, its not based on what has worked in the past or market history (in fact its ignoring it but thats neither here nor there).... its based on nothing other than the 'feeling' things have got to get better (or they can't get any worse). Its a dangerous game and a fantastic way to lose money.

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                      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        Yes, I've read and heard him talk about how he became such a great rebounder. But he's also naturally a very good rebounder because he's a hustler. That's his personality. Take a look at his college stats. He averaged 15.7 rpg over the course of his college career.
                        When I was a kid I didn't care about using my hands to fix things. I had no interest in home improvement. When I went to college that feeling did not change but then as time went on I changed, I suddenly cared. It wasn't due to an experience. I had matured over that time and suddenly things that I felt were boring or tedious or unemployable suddenly felt vital that I know to be a real man, to look after my family, to best represent who I was as a person. I felt bad that I couldn't fix a toilet or paint a wall. So what did I do? I studied up, I repainted my whole house, I put down new flooring on two different floors of my house. I power washed, sanded and refinished my back deck. I replaced a door, I installed a new threshold, I did all these things that I once felt were a pain in the ass and I enjoyed it and I felt obligated in a way to do it because it was my responsibility to do so. And I don't mean to sound cocky but I feel I've become pretty good at doing handyman stuff around the house now. Maturity, it's a game changer Tim. Bargnani hasn't played defense or rebounded in the ball in the past primarily due to a lack of effort. You hear him talk earlier in his career and it's all about the offense. Even when he started to talk about rebounding and defense a couple years ago you could tell he was just saying what people wanted to hear. He had no enthusiasm when he talked about it. Nothing lit up in his eyes when the topic came up. I have not heard an interview with him this camp but I have heard from Casey and he's saying Bargnani is doing a whole lot of things that to me imply a new found maturity and finally a damn sense of accountability in doing the things he needs to do to be the man of this house so to speak. Will he succeed? Damned if I know but I know I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you when we both know the outcome of it. That being zero progress. Fine, you don't believe he can do it. I've heard it a million times now and I've agreed at times but there's nothing left to be said there. Let's watch and see what he does.

                        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        and this is what I don't get and simply will never get. Why people want to totally dismiss what is known for what is unknown.
                        I think the first thing to understand is we're not saying it's going to happen and we're not overlooking anything or I'm not anyway. We're saying let the season play out. This is a transitional time. If you're not down with that then fine but you're probably in for a bad experience with your point of view because it flies contrary to everything we know about how Colangelo has handled Bargnani, to deal him now before Casey can do any work on him.

                        Comment


                        • SandmanFan wrote: View Post
                          Bargs continues to get another chance because he really brings something unique to the court - his size and scoring ability make him very difficult to defend.
                          I actually think Bargnani is pretty easy to defend if opposing coaches were more comfortable with sticking a shorter, quicker small foward-type player on him (e.g. Josh Smith, Jeff Green, Wilson Chandler, Mbah A Moute, LeBron, Deng, Rashard Lewis etc.). They would have the lateral quicks to stay in front of Bargnani, and Bargnani wouldn't bother using his size to his advantage by posting up his smaller defenders.

                          There were many times last year where this type of scenario played out. And instead of a guaranteed basket (or at the very least, a trip to the FT line), we watched Bargnani pump fake twice, take one dribble step, and force a contested 20 footer which clanged off side rim.

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                          • tbihis wrote: View Post
                            Agree. i find it fascinating that somebody would reward a player who finally works hard and pays attention, BY TRADING HIM!!!!! Just so they wont miss out! I think thats sending a bad message to the other players. Much like Lamar Odom being traded, at first i thought he was just being a sensitive little girl, but when you look at it, the guy just won the 6th man of the year, helped you win 2 championships, and didnt even give him the courtesy to inform him he's being traded. OUCH.

                            But hey, on the other hand, its a business. Thats what the professional basketballs has come to, a business.
                            I think everything depends on the circumstance and the player. For a player to finally "get it" insinuates he'll still maintain it. After 5 years of doing something one way a year of drastic improvment might indeed indicate a turning of the corner but it could possibly be an anamoly as well. Andrea could indeed improve this year in his traditional areas of weakness which would indicate his maturing as a player but for myself, even in the areas we don't expect improvement in I still think he's only a decent player.

                            We laud his scoring ability because we know he can shoot but the facts remain 21pts on 17 shots. Thats not highly efficient by any measurements so if there is an opportunity to get a better player or better assets for him I'd be all for it. Imo teaching a player to be physical at this stage of his career might be more of a sign that he doesn't naturally have that desire which could mean him quickly reverting back to his old habits.

                            I don't wish anything bad upon Andrea and if he improves, to me I'm all for it and it's about time, but the organization has spent many resources on trying to make this a reality and failed thus far. I would definitely change my opinion on him being with the team long term however if I feel that these changes were permanent and he was a key piece to winning moving forward but that might take a few years of me seeing these changes consistently.

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                            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              Since I followed the Pistons very closely at that time, I can tell you I don't really need to research Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman did enter the NBA late, at 25, but he was always a good rebounder and defender who worked hard on the court. Always. Even in college. It's true that he did mature (somewhat) but it didn't change who he was.
                              It's easy enough to verify by perusing http://www.basketball-reference.com/...rodmade01.html

                              Dennis Rodman averaged between 5.3 and 7.3 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes his first 4 years in the league. His average rose to 8.9 in his 5th year and then varied between 9.8 and 12.6 for the last 9 years of his career. We're talking a roughly 50% increase over his 4 years, a very, very significant increase.

                              Another interesting tidbit about Dennis Rodman is how many offensive rebounds did he grab per 36 minutes. Between 5.1 and 5.3 the first four years, 4.3 in his 5th year, and between 3.4 and 6.3 the last nine years of his career. Interesting (to me).

                              Comment


                              • I'm going to give Bargnani another excuse - one that I do feel has merit.

                                I'm not sure if anyone remembers last year but JT kept talking about roles. "Bargnani is a scorer." "Reggie is a rebounder." There were other players too if I recall correctly.

                                By labelling a player how are they suppose to do the 'other' things? There seems to be a major shift in approach to not only Andrea but the team.

                                I'm looking forward to this year. The only way I"ll be disappointed is if the defensive intensity has not noticeable improve and, more importantly, if players are not held responsible and accountable - and this goes for more than Andrea.

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