View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

Voters
128. You may not vote on this poll
  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
Page 437 of 528 FirstFirst ... 337 387 427 435 436 437 438 439 447 487 ... LastLast
Results 8,721 to 8,740 of 10549

Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8721
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Why didnt they do this with Bargnani??

    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...ve-In-Contract

    Couldve helped.

  2. #8722
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,850
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    mixed feelings but starting to come around. I was initially in the camp of hold on to him and see what we can get in the summer but it appears that there is a deadline coming up regarding the luxury tax that puts an extra ace in colangelo's hand that he won't have this summer. It's nice to say we'd rather have someone else but are we really going to get someone else for him?

  3. #8723
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,632
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    You're still basing this move on getting rid of Bargnani. That's ludicrous, IMO. The Toronto Raptors do not NEED Carlos Boozer to be a more successful and talented team. They need something, but it doesn't have to be Carlos Boozer. There are much better ways to annually spend 15M a year on an old, declining PF.

    As for stats, read my sig for my view on that.
    Not when the alternative is spending $11M per year on an underachieving, on-court deadbeat. The difference is $4M per year plus any tax and the MLE going from full to mini. I am not sure why anyone would care about the extra money when the team is owned by 2 multi-billion dollar media empires and I am also not sure what free agent coup the Raptors are going to land with a mid-level exception.

    Due to the CBA, and even with the amnesty, the Raptors have no way to spend the money elsewhere. Obviously Bargnani is going to return jack shit and it is painfully clear that his value is never going up. He is what he is.

    As for unfounded and baseless opinions, maybe I should look at editing my sig for my views on that.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  4. #8724
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    48
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I can't wait to read the Bulls' fans messages should this deal happen.

    Boozer is still a better player - both offensively and defensively - than Bargnani.


    This season Boozer OffRtg 101; DefRtg 100
    This season Bargnani OffRtg 95; DefRtg 110

    Boozer career OffRtg 110; DefRtg 102
    Bargnani career OffRtg 103; DefRtg 111


    Not to mention Boozer actually hits the glass and gives you 8.5 more possessions per 48 minutes.
    Defensive Rating, ON/OFF/NET

    Noah-101.5/106.0/-4.5
    Boozer -105.6/98.5/+7.0
    Andrea-111.2/109.1/+2.0
    Amir-107.2/112.6/-5.4

    Net is the key number. Boozer derense has a larger negative impact for his team than Andrea does.

    Raptors have a better DRR than the Bulls.

    15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer sums up their reaction. They think Andrea can help space the floor for Rose, Deng and Noah. In two years they will replace him with Nikola Mirotic.

  5. #8725
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote bobbybutler wrote: View Post
    Defensive Rating, ON/OFF/NET

    Noah-101.5/106.0/-4.5
    Boozer -105.6/98.5/+7.0
    Andrea-111.2/109.1/+2.0
    Amir-107.2/112.6/-5.4

    Net is the key number. Boozer derense has a larger negative impact for his team than Andrea does.

    Raptors have a better DRR than the Bulls.

    15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer sums up their reaction. They think Andrea can help space the floor for Rose, Deng and Noah. In two years they will replace him with Nikola Mirotic.
    Fair enough. The problem is you know Bargnani is not going to be stuck playing 15 mins a game under BC and Casey's watch. Would you really want to see how Bargnani's net is going to plummet once he starts playing 30+ mins a game again?

    Same. In two years the Raps either replace Boozer with a better player, or cap space.

  6. #8726
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,632
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This is one of the things that bugs me though. It's an easy move to swallow now because of the talent upgrade, but then you're left with a guy you're paying 15 million sit out the end of close games. In the end, we get basically all the same issues (at least on D, where he may even be worse as a man defender) as Bargnani, just a more efficient scorer and rebounder. I get your reasoning, because you compare Boozer to Bargnani so it's an upgrade. But I can't help but compare Boozer to other options(that I hope are there now or would be in the summer). I keep hoping another deal is out there...hopefully Milwaukee decides to blow it up. I would wait until the offseason to revisit this trade....but I hope BC at the very least has the patience to wait til the end of this trade season, since it really seems Chicago's not got any other options. And like we both agree on, he should really try to get a pick off them...really, they have no bargaining power, and as a cheapskate team, chances are they will end up trading that pick rather than add guaranteed money next season.
    Unfortunately while patience is a good thing, at some point you have to make a move. Chicago's deadline to avoid the tax is February 21st.

    If Milwaukee seeks to move Ilyasova, they are going to have more suitors than Toronto and better assets coming back than Bargnani.

    Also, lets look at career defensive ratings:
    Boozer 102
    Ilyasova 103
    Millsap 104

    Looking at this season:
    Boozer 100
    Ilyasova 103
    Millsap 104
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  7. #8727
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,825
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    mixed feelings but starting to come around. I was initially in the camp of hold on to him and see what we can get in the summer but it appears that there is a deadline coming up regarding the luxury tax that puts an extra ace in colangelo's hand that he won't have this summer. It's nice to say we'd rather have someone else but are we really going to get someone else for him?
    Unfortunately this is the tricky part...and only BC would know.....It is worth noting that with the news today clearly places this as Chicago's #1 option. There has been a lot of quiet around Toronto. The last thing that seemed to be about them pursuing someone was linking them to Ilyasova.

    This is why I keep hoping the Bucks decide to blow it up...and honestly, at this point and with the rumors, I think it is exactly what BC is waiting to see. If they trade Jennings, they're blowing it up. They might be willing to let go of Ilyasova for Bargs for the shorter commitment, and, as we all know, if you're going to suck for a year or two, who better to feature than Bargs?

  8. #8728
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,825
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately while patience is a good thing, at some point you have to make a move. Chicago's deadline to avoid the tax is February 21st.

    If Milwaukee seeks to move Ilyasova, they are going to have more suitors than Toronto and better assets coming back than Bargnani.

    Also, lets look at career defensive ratings:
    Boozer 102
    Ilyasova 103
    Millsap 104

    Looking at this season:
    Boozer 100
    Ilyasova 103
    Millsap 104
    I get it. Chicago doesn't want to pay the tax this season...but you make it sound like if TO doesn't take this deal, Chicago will unload Boozer to someone else and fix their tax problems for this year and going forward......

    If this is the only deal they've really got for Boozer, why should we care if they end up paying the luxury tax?? If they can't trade Boozer, and end up paying the tax, they will still be trying to unload him so they don't end up doing so again next year. None of this affects Toronto in any way, at least if BC decides he wants to wait. I feel like you basically don't think this deal will still be here in the summer...or that it will be worse??? I don't feel it's that huge a difference maker in the short run (could care less between just missing or squeaking into the playoffs to get smashed by Miami), so if it's more for the next 2 years anyway, what is the risk of waiting???

    I mean, if this is Chicago's preferred deal, how much worse must their other options be...if they have any...

  9. #8729
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Hamilton
    Posts
    1,396
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I personally like the trade but I'm hoping I'm not fooled by it. There are a few things that come to mind when I see it
    1. Tom Thibodeau is one of the best defensive coaches in the league, while Casey is aswell Thibs is on another level IMO. Could boozers DRting be inflated by the coach.
    2. Probably my worst concern is injury. No doubt boozer>bargs but if boozer gets injured which he has a large history of, is Nate Robinson+16 Mil./yr> Bargnani and Lucas?

    3. Financial- probably the least of my concerns but if I'm not mistaken if this trade happens raptors lose the MLE and only get the mini MLE. Correct? This limits the raptors from getting any better.

    Would they be a playoff team? Yes.
    Would they be contenders?
    Probably not.
    Would they have the flexibility to become contenders?
    Definitely not.

    This trade puts us in an Atlanta situation. Constantly in the playoffs but never good enough to be considered a contender.
    Again I'm all for this trade. Raptors won big time talent for talent. But they're are so many ways that this trade could end up hurting us, I find myself 2nd guessing it.

  10. #8730
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Hamilton
    Posts
    1,396
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I feel like we could find a better trade elsewhere even if the talent isn't as good

  11. #8731
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,632
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote bobbybutler wrote: View Post
    Defensive Rating, ON/OFF/NET

    Noah-101.5/106.0/-4.5
    Boozer -105.6/98.5/+7.0
    Andrea-111.2/109.1/+2.0
    Amir-107.2/112.6/-5.4

    Net is the key number. Boozer derense has a larger negative impact for his team than Andrea does.

    Raptors have a better DRR than the Bulls.

    15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer sums up their reaction. They think Andrea can help space the floor for Rose, Deng and Noah. In two years they will replace him with Nikola Mirotic.
    That is interesting.

    But lets look at net total points.

    In 30% of Toronto's minutes played, Bargnani on the court has resulted in minus 77 points.

    In 59% of Chicago's minutes played, Boozer on the court has resulted in minus 33 points.

    Putting that in perspective in half the time on court Bargnani has resulted in a net negative effect of over double the points. So I VERY MUCH DISAGREE that 15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer.

    Boozer's results are hardly spectacular but he is still a major SUPERSTAR in comparison to Bargnani.

    This deal makes the Raptors better and adds talent. Wait to the last minute to squeeze out a draft pick if possible but, whether that happens or not, lets do it Bryan!
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  12. #8732
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Manitoba
    Posts
    545
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    For years we have seen Colangelo attempt to build a roster similar to what he has in Phoenix…a fast paced, highly revved offensive team to make up for defensive inability. Whether this was true or not it seemed to be a relatively recognizable pattern.

    Over the last two years we have started to see some changes in terms of how the team is being built, and this hypothetical Boozer/Bargnani deal has got me thinking. The question that has been being asked is what the ceiling of this roster is.

    I decided for the heck of it to compare the Raptors, as would be constructed after this Boozer deal, to the 2010-2011 Chicago Bulls.

    PG: Rose is clearly head and shoulders above Lowry. The hope is that Lowry could become a Rose-lite type of player. Attacking off the dribble, tough defense, and the ability to use the 3-pointer as a significant weapon. With the swap of Robinson and Lucas, the Bulls would be re-acquiring their old back-up. I think it’s fair to say that Nate is a better-rounded player to Lucas.

    SG: This was always Chicago’s weakest spot: Bogans, Brewer, Butler. They were not slouches, but I would argue that DeRozan and Ross have higher ceilings than any of those three.

    SF: Gay or Deng? Once again, I think that Gay has the higher ceiling then Deng…certainly not better now, but has the opportunity to be. Back-ups: Fields or James Johnson? I take Fields

    PF: Boozer is currently playing better than he did two years ago. Could Amir be our Gibson? A back-up energy bigman who can guard rather capably both frontcourt spots?

    C: Noah is the player who Valanciunas is compared to most frequently…still a lot of development, but could get there or beyond. And clearly Asik is a huge upgrade/advantage over Gray.

    Coach: Casey came in with a similar reputation to Thibs…so there’s hope.

    Please be clear, I am not arguing that the Raptors would be equal to the Bulls…but I think they could be a tougher team then I at least have been thinking…I hope.

    I’m open to the Boozer/Bargnani swap…either way the Raptors are financially handcuffed for the foreseeable future. I’m still not a fan of Boozer or Robinson, and it would be strange to route for them. But if it brings some success then that would be easier to swallow.

    I would agree with Matt52 though…I would love for the Raptors to try and extort the Bulls for something like a first round pick. After all, how much is saving all that money worth to Chicago? What’s the going rate for mid-late first round pick?

  13. #8733
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,632
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    I personally like the trade but I'm hoping I'm not fooled by it. There are a few things that come to mind when I see it
    1. Tom Thibodeau is one of the best defensive coaches in the league, while Casey is aswell Thibs is on another level IMO. Could boozers DRting be inflated by the coach.
    2. Probably my worst concern is injury. No doubt boozer>bargs but if boozer gets injured which he has a large history of, is Nate Robinson+16 Mil./yr> Bargnani and Lucas?

    3. Financial- probably the least of my concerns but if I'm not mistaken if this trade happens raptors lose the MLE and only get the mini MLE. Correct? This limits the raptors from getting any better.

    Would they be a playoff team? Yes.
    Would they be contenders?
    Probably not.
    Would they have the flexibility to become contenders?
    Definitely not.


    This trade puts us in an Atlanta situation. Constantly in the playoffs but never good enough to be considered a contender.
    Again I'm all for this trade. Raptors won big time talent for talent. But they're are so many ways that this trade could end up hurting us, I find myself 2nd guessing it.
    How many games has Bargnani played the last 3 years? Injury histories are pretty even and maybe slightly in Boozer's favor given recent history.

    How does keeping Bargnani give the Raptors flexibility to become a contender? They are still a tax team with Bargnani and lets not kid ourselves that there is a better deal out there for Bargnani. If there was, he'd be gone.

    This situation might put the Raptors in an Atlanta situation for 2 seasons but given the history of the Raptors, is that a bad thing? In 2 seasons you still have the main guys on the team in their prime (Rudy/Lowry) while the young guys are in their prime (DD/possible Amir/Fields) with the young guys (JV/TR/QA) with 3 years experience under their belt. Who knows what that will result in? Also making the playoffs this season adds another draft pick so include him. Finally you have a $17M expiring conctract trade chip in super luxury tax era.

    Anyway you slice it, this deal is a no brainer in my very unhumble opinion.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  14. #8734
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,632
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I get it. Chicago doesn't want to pay the tax this season...but you make it sound like if TO doesn't take this deal, Chicago will unload Boozer to someone else and fix their tax problems for this year and going forward......

    If this is the only deal they've really got for Boozer, why should we care if they end up paying the luxury tax?? If they can't trade Boozer, and end up paying the tax, they will still be trying to unload him so they don't end up doing so again next year. None of this affects Toronto in any way, at least if BC decides he wants to wait. I feel like you basically don't think this deal will still be here in the summer...or that it will be worse??? I don't feel it's that huge a difference maker in the short run (could care less between just missing or squeaking into the playoffs to get smashed by Miami), so if it's more for the next 2 years anyway, what is the risk of waiting???

    I mean, if this is Chicago's preferred deal, how much worse must their other options be...if they have any...
    And if this is the only deal on the table for Bargnani, what other options do Toronto have to unload him?

    Chicago is making a basketball trade based on finances.
    Toronto is making a basketball trade based on basketball.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  15. #8735
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,850
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    the funny thing is that the boozer beehive is being stirred up again but the actual source of the story, while it is a new article. just makes mention of the original story from a week ago...that got this whole thing started. I guess we have to put our "trade for rudy gay!!" energy somewhere. Should be an interesting week. Any thoughts on whether general managers tend to go to the all star game making it sort of like the baseball winter meetings for trade talks?

  16. #8736
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    34
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    If they trade Jennings, they're blowing it up. They might be willing to let go of Ilyasova for Bargs for the shorter commitment, and, as we all know, if you're going to suck for a year or two, who better to feature than Bargs?
    That made my afternoon! It's funny, because it's true. But, that's exactly why I like the deal. Bargs is basically an untradable contract--unless a team plans to intentionally tank. If a penny-pinching owner is willing to take him in a trade for an overpaid, but serviceable big, I say do it. Right now we have Bargs, Gray and Acy as our backup bigs and our two starters foul like crazy. The other names that people keep mentioning are pie in the sky unless BC is clever enough to fleece some opposing GM.

  17. #8737
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,850
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Shantz wrote: View Post
    For years we have seen Colangelo attempt to build a roster similar to what he has in Phoenix…a fast paced, highly revved offensive team to make up for defensive inability. Whether this was true or not it seemed to be a relatively recognizable pattern.

    Over the last two years we have started to see some changes in terms of how the team is being built, and this hypothetical Boozer/Bargnani deal has got me thinking. The question that has been being asked is what the ceiling of this roster is.

    I decided for the heck of it to compare the Raptors, as would be constructed after this Boozer deal, to the 2010-2011 Chicago Bulls.

    PG: Rose is clearly head and shoulders above Lowry. The hope is that Lowry could become a Rose-lite type of player. Attacking off the dribble, tough defense, and the ability to use the 3-pointer as a significant weapon. With the swap of Robinson and Lucas, the Bulls would be re-acquiring their old back-up. I think it’s fair to say that Nate is a better-rounded player to Lucas.

    SG: This was always Chicago’s weakest spot: Bogans, Brewer, Butler. They were not slouches, but I would argue that DeRozan and Ross have higher ceilings than any of those three.

    SF: Gay or Deng? Once again, I think that Gay has the higher ceiling then Deng…certainly not better now, but has the opportunity to be. Back-ups: Fields or James Johnson? I take Fields

    PF: Boozer is currently playing better than he did two years ago. Could Amir be our Gibson? A back-up energy bigman who can guard rather capably both frontcourt spots?

    C: Noah is the player who Valanciunas is compared to most frequently…still a lot of development, but could get there or beyond. And clearly Asik is a huge upgrade/advantage over Gray.

    Coach: Casey came in with a similar reputation to Thibs…so there’s hope.

    Please be clear, I am not arguing that the Raptors would be equal to the Bulls…but I think they could be a tougher team then I at least have been thinking…I hope.

    I’m open to the Boozer/Bargnani swap…either way the Raptors are financially handcuffed for the foreseeable future. I’m still not a fan of Boozer or Robinson, and it would be strange to route for them. But if it brings some success then that would be easier to swallow.

    I would agree with Matt52 though…I would love for the Raptors to try and extort the Bulls for something like a first round pick. After all, how much is saving all that money worth to Chicago? What’s the going rate for mid-late first round pick?
    That's an interesting perspective but the only flaw is that this is a star driven league and 2 half stars do not equal one star. Rose is a megastar and he made that team what it was making everyone else better. That said, I'll take the 4th seed next year.

  18. #8738
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    793
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not when the alternative is spending $11M per year on an underachieving, on-court deadbeat. The difference is $4M per year plus any tax and the MLE going from full to mini.
    Yes, the world of X and NOT X, in which other options do not exist!

    I am more or less indifferent to this trade because I believe it's trading one problem for a different problem. I believe Chicago will have an easier time solving the Bargnani problem than Toronto Boozer's going forward but that's just my opinion based on volatility of stats. I am not a fan of Boozer but it's hard to imagine Bargnani is not just a distraction which needs a quick resolution.

    I am kind of sad thinking the accelerated rebuilding might result in Fields, Gay, and Boozer, three overpaid players. Yes, we are a better team but unless JV and/or Ross develop very quickly, I can see us having very little flexibility to help the team in two years.

  19. #8739
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    maybe MLSE isn't willing to do this deal.. they said they'd go into the luxury for the right deal.. I assumed back then that the deal was Gasol.. I wonder if they just don't see this as the right deal especially if they have to pay luxury tax for 2 seasons instead of 1 with gasol

  20. #8740
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,632
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    For all the Hollinger fans:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=agacaan

    Chicago:
    Bargnani 12.3 PER
    Lucas 15.0 PER

    Toronto:
    Boozer 17.1 PER
    Robinson 18.5 PER

    Trade results in +5 wins for Toronto and -11 wins for Chicago.


    Based on Robinson's production, he might be the hidden gem here - with the major assumption that he has matured and accepts he is a good backup PG in the NBA.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

Page 437 of 528 FirstFirst ... 337 387 427 435 436 437 438 439 447 487 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •