View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #881
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    1. the raptors dance pak
    There are no black chicks in the dance pak anymore..

    i hope they rectify that problem this upcoming season... i need some diversity in my gyrating asses

    Asians seem to be making a surge in population, but they have a long way to go to challenge for the championship.. the bleach blondes still run the playground.

  2. #882
    Raptors Republic Rookie the_aftermath's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=heinz57;40049]There are no black chicks in the dance pak anymore..

    My thoughts exactly man. I need me some ghetto booty

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote noxleno wrote: View Post
    Wow, this thread filled up really fast...no surprise there given the nature of the thread. For the record, I voted YES in the poll; my logic being that while Bargnani may not be a top ten player at doing the things that are typically required at center (rebounding, interior defense, etc) , he is still better overallthan some of the older, more traditional centers that one might include in such a list. In reality, Bargnani shouldn't even apply in a conversation about centers, but since he does, and is listed as a PF/C, then with all aspects of the game considered he is more valuable in general when not considered as a C.
    ?

    he's a centre, because he's even worse at defending PFs. the only reason people continually trumpet the 'bargs is a 4' horn is because they want to make excuses for his poor rebounding (compared against 5's, his numbers are a traveshamockery...against 4's, they're merely atrociodisgusting).

    defensively, he really doesn't have the foot-speed to stick with any kind of quick/stretch 4 (basically, they'd do to him what he'd to centres...BECAUSE HE'S A CENTRE!).

    offensively, the primary skills he brings to the table (stepping out to the perimeter, above-average ball-handling for a big) are really only maximized when he's being guarded by 5's (and slow ones at that). put him at the 4, where he's guarded by guys who can match (or exceed) his footspeed, and his advantages are diminished.

    unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that he IS a centre, and the question therefore asked whether he is a top-10 centre in the league. there are certain responsibilities that are simply part & parcel of being a centre that he just doesn't do well. SFW if he can step out & hit 3's (at the LEAGUE AVERAGE! FAAAANTASTIC!!!); if he rebounds like a SG & can't/won't/doesn't know how to play help D (arguably, the most important role of a 5) & plays poor overall D, how does that make him an elite-level CENTRE?
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  4. #884
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    When are you all going to stop bashing Bargnani. He's out centre and he will perform. If you loved CB4 and only him, why don't you just follow the Heat and stay away from the raps. Give the guy a chance. He and the rest of the team are no longer playing in bosh's shadow or one man game....give it a rest and go pick on someone else.

    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    ?

    he's a centre, because he's even worse at defending PFs. the only reason people continually trumpet the 'bargs is a 4' horn is because they want to make excuses for his poor rebounding (compared against 5's, his numbers are a traveshamockery...against 4's, they're merely atrociodisgusting).

    defensively, he really doesn't have the foot-speed to stick with any kind of quick/stretch 4 (basically, they'd do to him what he'd to centres...BECAUSE HE'S A CENTRE!).

    offensively, the primary skills he brings to the table (stepping out to the perimeter, above-average ball-handling for a big) are really only maximized when he's being guarded by 5's (and slow ones at that). put him at the 4, where he's guarded by guys who can match (or exceed) his footspeed, and his advantages are diminished.

    unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that he IS a centre, and the question therefore asked whether he is a top-10 centre in the league. there are certain responsibilities that are simply part & parcel of being a centre that he just doesn't do well. SFW if he can step out & hit 3's (at the LEAGUE AVERAGE! FAAAANTASTIC!!!); if he rebounds like a SG & can't/won't/doesn't know how to play help D (arguably, the most important role of a 5) & plays poor overall D, how does that make him an elite-level CENTRE?

  5. #885
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    Quote madeupid25 wrote: View Post
    Buddahfan, explain yourself, r u a devout follower of the Dalai Lama?
    Apparently you never noticed the picture of James Edwards he has on his signature. Edwards' nickname was Buddha. I simply forgive the spelling.

  6. #886
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    I don't think he said there was no value to defence. He was just saying fans tend to only look on offence because that's how you score points and the name of the game is scoring. And if points were given for defence, there would be much more recognition and value of a player's defencive capabilities. Then again, I could be mistaken.

    As for the topic, obviously we're going to value Bargnani more for his offence because that is his strength, just like Perkins' strength is his defence. It really depends on the team you're on. If Bargnani was on Boston where his defence would be shadowed by KG, etc. He wouldn't be frowned upon for his defence. If Perkins was on the Raptors, he would be no where near a top 10 center in this league because of the fact that he can't create anything on a team with no playmakers. Makes him look terrible, plus his defence/rebounding will be less valued because no wins are being produced.

    All I know is that overall, I would take Bargnani over Perkins (and other centers like him) if I'm the current version of the Raptors. He still has a chance to learn to play better defence than Perkins has a chance to hit 100 3-pointers in a season.
    The problem is that the really great teams simply don't add big men who aren't good defenders or rebounders to their roster. The great teams value defense and rebounding more than a lot of fans around here seem to. And you don't win with big men who aren't good rebounders and defenders. By saying that Bargnani is better for the Raptors than Perkins, all that tells me is that you're either willing to ignore the entire history of the NBA Championships, or that you simply don't care whether or not the Raptors ever win a Championship.

    And maybe you could explain to me why you feelBargnani still has a chance to be a better defender than Perkins, despite only one year difference between them? If great defense is that easy to learn to play, why aren't everyone in the league good defenders? I think that statement right there tells me how much you really value defense.

  7. #887
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    Quote Green Grocer wrote: View Post
    When are you all going to stop bashing Bargnani. He's out centre and he will perform. If you loved CB4 and only him, why don't you just follow the Heat and stay away from the raps. Give the guy a chance. He and the rest of the team are no longer playing in bosh's shadow or one man game....give it a rest and go pick on someone else.
    He never once brought up Bosh in his post. And Bargnani IS a center and didn't say one thing that wasn't true (although he rebounds like a SF, not a SG).

    Some of you guys seem to act like it's a sin to criticize any Raptor. There are many who feel that Bargnani is not a player you can win with in your starting lineup and there are plenty of facts and figures to back up that opinion. Saying we're not Raptor fans because we don't want Bargnani on our team reminds me far too much of the attitude that was pervasive in the US during Bush's reign. If you love the US, don't criticize it! It is for the very reason that we ARE Raptors fans that we are passionate about our opinion of Bargnani. If we weren't Raptor fans, do you really think we'd care whether or not he was on the team?

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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    I don't think he said there was no value to defence. He was just saying fans tend to only look on offence because that's how you score points and the name of the game is scoring. And if points were given for defence, there would be much more recognition and value of a player's defencive capabilities. Then again, I could be mistaken.

    As for the topic, obviously we're going to value Bargnani more for his offence because that is his strength, just like Perkins' strength is his defence. It really depends on the team you're on. If Bargnani was on Boston where his defence would be shadowed by KG, etc. He wouldn't be frowned upon for his defence. If Perkins was on the Raptors, he would be no where near a top 10 center in this league because of the fact that he can't create anything on a team with no playmakers. Makes him look terrible, plus his defence/rebounding will be less valued because no wins are being produced.

    All I know is that overall, I would take Bargnani over Perkins (and other centers like him) if I'm the current version of the Raptors. He still has a chance to learn to play better defence than Perkins has a chance to hit 100 3-pointers in a season.
    yea but what im saying is real fans DO RECOGNIZE defense...

    and perkins is only a year older than bargs, so he will continue to get better.

    i cant remember the last time a game was won due to a big hitting a 3.... but i remember over a hundred times where the game was won because a big defended the paint or grabbed a rebound and didnt allow any second chance points.
    Last edited by vinnie_paz; Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 12:50 PM.

  9. #889
    Raptors Republic Rookie madeupid25's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    They say it is better to have your girlfriend make some brownies

    1. You know she loves you if she does
    2. You never know what will be inside
    3. If worse comes to worse you know that the brownies will always taste good. Never ate a bad tasting brownie in my life
    4. A lot less hassle to consume.
    5. Less messy if you consume only part of a serving - see #6
    6. Its always fun to lick your fingers
    7. If you loan your lighter to someone its not a problem if they don't return it.


    LMAO That is excellent advice

  10. #890
    Raptors Republic Rookie madeupid25's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Apparently you never noticed the picture of James Edwards he has on his signature. Edwards' nickname was Buddha. I simply forgive the spelling.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Edwards_(basketball)

    Nicknamed "Buddha" for his appearance (he often sported a Fu Manchu mustache) and stoic demeanor, the 7' 0" Edwards played 19 years (1977-1996) in the NBA, playing both the center and power forward positions.

    No, I didn't know his nickname, even though he was still playing during the Jordan era which is when I started following the game.... This might be a topic for a new thread, but damn, how come most guys can't play for close to 20 years anymore?

  11. #891
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote madeupid25 wrote: View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Edwards_(basketball)

    how come most guys can't play for close to 20 years anymore?
    what's the incentive? if a player is good enough to have a long-term career (say, 7+ years) nowadays, they'd be a millionaire many times over (antoine walker excluded; actually, i shouldn't make light of his situation, an astounding number of ballers who made significant coin are bankrupt or near bankrupt. pays to pick your 'friends' wisely...).

    anyway, it takes a special breed of player to essentially ignore the money they make & continue to go through the physical & mental trials/tribulations required of a pro athlete. put it this way - if you won the lottery (say, $5M) tomorrow, how long would it take to pen your resignation letter? casual fans forget that to pro athletes, it's a job; we see it as glamour & fun & a dream-come-true (and it may be all those things, at least initially). but after a few years, it takes a toll, and most guys who aren't built with an innate desire for competition (i.e. those who aren't impacted by $...think of hedo turkoglu, except the exact opposite) would rather pack it in & live comfortably, with their bodies relatively intact.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  12. #892
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Green Grocer wrote: View Post
    When are you all going to stop bashing Bargnani. He's out centre and he will perform. If you loved CB4 and only him, why don't you just follow the Heat and stay away from the raps. Give the guy a chance. He and the rest of the team are no longer playing in bosh's shadow or one man game....give it a rest and go pick on someone else.
    how is stating facts 'bashing' bargnani? how am i 'picking' on him? he's a horrible rebounder, an average man defender & well-below-average help defender; rebounding & overall D (but especially help D) from the centre position are exceptionally important factors in team success. unless/until he improves EXPONENTIALLY in these areas, as long as he's a key part of the rotation, the raps will struggle.

    but at least VL will put up those eye-popping offensive numbers...WOOHOO, 20 ppg (FINGERS-CROSSED!!) on below average %'s & below average FTAs!! i can't wait.

    FWIW - i'm no bosh fanboy (i was advocating trading him two years ago, when they might have been able to get something for him), but i at least can separate how i feel about him personally with how he performed on the court. i refuse to become part of the infantile rabble of jilted lovers who resort to revising history & making up silly nicknames to make themselves feel better. i'm a supporter of this team, and will be regardless of who dons the uni...but as a supporter, i feel an obligation to not merely stand & cheer every move & assume that BC et al have everything all figured out (that's doug smith's job, apparently).

    as jules would say, 'if my answers frighten you, cease asking scary questions.'
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  13. #893
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    Quote madeupid25 wrote: View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Edwards_(basketball)

    Nicknamed "Buddha" for his appearance (he often sported a Fu Manchu mustache) and stoic demeanor, the 7' 0" Edwards played 19 years (1977-1996) in the NBA, playing both the center and power forward positions.

    No, I didn't know his nickname, even though he was still playing during the Jordan era which is when I started following the game.... This might be a topic for a new thread, but damn, how come most guys can't play for close to 20 years anymore?
    Hey guys are playing, on average longer than they ever have. Guys playing until their late 30's was extremely rare and playing at 40 was pretty much unheard of. Kareem was, as far as I can recall, the first 40 year old player who actually was a rotation player. Stockton and Malone, playing at a high level into their late 30's was amazing. There are fewer at the moment, but that's partly because players are entering the league so much younger. There are still guys playing 16-18 years, but instead of being 38-40, their 34-36 years old.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is the type of player that, if you're a casual fan, it's easy to overrate. Looking at his skills individually, he looks great. He's a 7 footer that can do what few 7 footers can do. He DOES have above average ball handling skills, mobility and outside shooting skills for a guy his size. Once in a while he WILL do something that looks spectacular. And that makes you think he can do that on a regular basis if given the chance. If you ignore his weaknesses, it's easy to see why some people have a hard on for the guy. More importantly if you ignore how problematic those weaknesses can be, you're going to think that Bargnani is better than he actually is.

    He's a big man who is a below average rebounder and team defender, which are two very important qualities for a big man. It's like a 6'0 player who isn't a good ball handler or passer. He might be a fantastic shooter, but if you're 6 feet and can't handle the ball or pass very well, it's a major, major issue.

    His best quality is his scoring but can't create his own shot or get to the line. Again, we're talking about a major problem. Bargnani may be very mobile and an above average ball handler for his size, but if his absolute best quality is his scoring, and he can't create his own shot or get to the line, just how useful is that skill? It means he's going to have to depend on others creating for him and it also means he's going to be inconsistent, both of which have been the case over the course of his career.

    Bargnani is a small forward in a center's body. In just about every way. Unfortunately, he can't defend the small forward position. You could live with his rebounding numbers and poor team defense at the SF position, but not at the 4 or 5. There it's a major liability.

    Fans see what they want to see. They want to see a fabulous shooter who can do things that amaze them on the court. They don't want to hear about Bargnani's faults and what a liability they can be and why it means he's not a top 10 center. They overvalue scoring and undervalue defense and rebounding because the former seems to require more skill. It doesn't, but it looks a lot prettier.
    Could you stop with the Bargnani being a small forwad already? Isn't this statement just a paraphrase of what Chisolm or somebody like that said? I'm so sick of the Bargnani haters, your ridiculous. First, where in the history of Bargnanis scouting report does it say that he is a strong rebounder? It doesn't Tim, he's never been known as a strong rebounder, and he wasn't drafted because of his defence. The Raps drafted Bargs because he's got an absolutely pure stroke, and he's a seven footer, I'm not rocket scientist but this sounds like a pretty good prospect to me. Its funny because if you actually watched the Raps, you would know that their biggest weakness over the years has been the perimeter defence and not Barg's rebounding. Do you realize that Bargs defence has to get a liiiittle better and he will be considered one of the premier C in the league!

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    All the negative guys like timw, buddah, vinnie etc your oppinion is no different then the pro bargni. THe truth always lies some where in the middle. Also notice all the negative Bargni guys are unemployed LOL

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    Raptors Republic Rookie madeupid25's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    what's the incentive? if a player is good enough to have a long-term career (say, 7+ years) nowadays, they'd be a millionaire many times over (antoine walker excluded; actually, i shouldn't make light of his situation, an astounding number of ballers who made significant coin are bankrupt or near bankrupt. pays to pick your 'friends' wisely...).
    This is true. Apparently Lorenzon Wright was flat broke and had turned to slangin drugs when he died recently. I have read since he passed that he spent loads of cash supporting his entourage, hiring them to do really easy jobs like waking him up in the morning (seriously)...

    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    if you won the lottery (say, $5M) tomorrow, how long would it take to pen your resignation letter?

    It has already been written. I am just waiting for my lotto numbers to get picked.

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    Another pointless thread for faux-raptors fans to whine and bitch about.

    Tim W= Chris Bosh
    Vinnie paz= lebron james

    you guys should check out www.miamiheat.com, you will be more appreciated there.

    We ALL know bargs is easily a top 10 centre in the league, if not a top 10 player.

  18. #898
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    Quote Nick wrote: View Post
    Could you stop with the Bargnani being a small forwad already? Isn't this statement just a paraphrase of what Chisolm or somebody like that said? I'm so sick of the Bargnani haters, your ridiculous. First, where in the history of Bargnanis scouting report does it say that he is a strong rebounder? It doesn't Tim, he's never been known as a strong rebounder, and he wasn't drafted because of his defence. The Raps drafted Bargs because he's got an absolutely pure stroke, and he's a seven footer, I'm not rocket scientist but this sounds like a pretty good prospect to me. Its funny because if you actually watched the Raps, you would know that their biggest weakness over the years has been the perimeter defence and not Barg's rebounding. Do you realize that Bargs defence has to get a liiiittle better and he will be considered one of the premier C in the league!
    Why is finding fault with a player hating him? I don't hate Bargnani. I don't want him on my team, but calling someone a hater is simply a way to disregard anything they say without acknowledging it's veracity.

    Nick, you're correct that Bargnani has never been known as a strong rebounder and he wasn't drafted for his defense. What exactly is your point? Are we not allowed to criticize weaknesses which he had coming into the league? WHy is that? His weaknesses he had coming in are EXACTLY why I didn't want the Raptors to draft him. Rebounding and defense are EXTREMELY important for big men. You don't win without it.

    A 7 footer with 3 point range is great, but not when can't do thing a big man is supposed to do. There have been plenty of 7 footers who could hit the three who have played over the years with varying degrees of success. The one's who have been the most successful have been the ones who have been able to do the other things, like rebound and play defense.

    And the Raptors have had problems with both defense, both inside and out, and rebounding in the last few years. And rebounding and interior defense are two of the key elements to winning a Championship. Period.

    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    All the negative guys like timw, buddah, vinnie etc your oppinion is no different then the pro bargni. THe truth always lies some where in the middle. Also notice all the negative Bargni guys are unemployed LOL
    I'm not sure how I'm negative. I'm simply pointing out facts about a player. I've certainly criticized Bargnani, but I've also defended Calderon, Belinelli and Bosh plenty of times. And Buddahfan is certainly not negative in his praise of Amir or his overly optimistic projections for the team next season.

    As for me being unemployed, I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion, but I had better tell my accountant because I've been paying far too much income tax if that's the case.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Another pointless thread for faux-raptors fans to whine and bitch about.

    Tim W= Chris Bosh
    Vinnie paz= lebron james

    you guys should check out www.miamiheat.com, you will be more appreciated there.

    We ALL know bargs is easily a top 10 centre in the league, if not a top 10 player.
    I'm not actually a big fan of Bosh and don't have any love for the Heat. And I do have one question, if Bargnani was traded away, would YOU still be Raptor fan?

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The problem is that the really great teams simply don't add big men who aren't good defenders or rebounders to their roster. The great teams value defense and rebounding more than a lot of fans around here seem to. And you don't win with big men who aren't good rebounders and defenders. By saying that Bargnani is better for the Raptors than Perkins, all that tells me is that you're either willing to ignore the entire history of the NBA Championships, or that you simply don't care whether or not the Raptors ever win a Championship.

    And maybe you could explain to me why you feelBargnani still has a chance to be a better defender than Perkins, despite only one year difference between them? If great defense is that easy to learn to play, why aren't everyone in the league good defenders? I think that statement right there tells me how much you really value defense.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when Gasol signed with the Lakers his defence wasn't that much better then Barg's is now.

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