View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8981
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    p00ka, I think the issue is that most here (myself included) don't understand why you would spend this much time trying to show that anecdotal stats aren't worth much, without any care for what these stats are trying to show.

    In other words, if you believe that Bargnani is indeed a net-negative player, why do you care how that message is conveyed, if you concur with the overall message? It comes across as arguing for the sake of argument.

    Or, if you believe that Bargnani indeed has value as a basketball player, why hide around the idea that you're simply pointing out statistical flaws?
    Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Mar 7th, 2013 at 11:47 AM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #8982
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    DOH, reading comprehension problem? I'm not defending him. I'm defending common sense against an assault by senseless manipulation of data to support a tired old agenda. As I said in an earlier post, there's enough valid stuff to dump on Bargs about (does that sound like defending him, doh?), that this simplistic and senseless manipulation of information isn't necessary. The point isn't when will defense of Bargs stop (that's not what's happening here), but when will an obsession with digging up more dirt (even when it's useless bullshit) stop.
    I get that. But why bother? Why do you care about how people are making their arguments about a player that is clearly not very good, overpaid and thus hogtying a franchise that is already overspending on several other players? This player needs to be traded.

    That is all.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  3. #8983
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    p00ka, I think the issue is that most here (myself included) don't understand why you would spend this much time trying to show that anecdotal stats aren't worth much, without any care for what these stats are trying to show.

    In other words, if you believe that Bargnani is indeed a net-negative player, why do you care how that message is conveyed, if you concur with the overall message? It comes across as arguing for the sake of argument.

    Or, if you believe that Bargnani indeed has value as a basketball player, why hide around the idea that you're simply pointing out statistical flaws?
    What's going on here.. I type out a message, saved it and then I look up and see you've posted the exact same thing. This has happened several times over the past week..
    your pal,
    ebrian

  4. #8984
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I get that. But why bother? Why do you care about how people are making their arguments about a player that is clearly not very good, overpaid and thus hogtying a franchise that is already overspending on several other players? This player needs to be traded.

    That is all.
    My guess is it's because pooka thinks math and facts actually matter, even when what you are presenting is just an "opinion". You can argue that Bargnani sucks for a ton of reasons, but when you bring "facts" and stats into your argument, they really should actually, you know, mean something. And the ones being presented don't actually mean anything because you can't prove causality or correlation between Bargnani's individual stats and those of the team as a whole. Mathematically speaking, I mean.

    If you're just trying to add to a narrative, it's fine, but there's no actual value to using those stats the way people are using them here. They are completely meaningless as related to the argument at hand.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  5. #8985
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I'd have expected it from some on here whose brains haven't developed enough yet, but you still don't get it? I thought you'd be someone capable of understanding a simple concept and deal with a rather simple intellectual challenge. Or is this just being the "mule on steroids" I spoke of, fueled by your view of the poster that questioned your information spin doctoring? Obsession and stubbornness can turn smart people into stuck on stupid, so maybe that's it.

    This isn't about arguing the merits of AB and what he represents to the Raps, good or bad. If you want to rant every other day about your opinion of Bargs, you know you'll have plenty of followers, so have at it with whatever "advanced stats" you can muster, if that does something for you. I wish you lots of fun doing so, but please don't confuse the "stats" you presented in this thread, which is what I responded to. as anything other than advanced (for the slow witted anyway) manipulation of anecdotal information to support your agenda. I gave you a perfect example of how the exact same type of information can be used to paint a picture of someone else, that is nowhere near what you want to hear, and you choose to take that as a comparison of players, rather than an example of how the data you did use in this thread is nothing but spin doctoring of manipulated data to feed the fire.

    "Show me something that does not support the overall argument that "Bargnani makes the Raptors a worse team this season."
    Looking forward to what you find."

    I don't know if this is simply not getting the point, or a common technique I've noticed at RR: re-direct the conversation into something you feel you can win. I don't need to go looking to find the information you look forward to, because I have zero interest following you down the change of path. You have lots of people here who will gladly hold your hand and dance down that path with you, as they do every day. Though I would suggest using the type of numbers that you'd accept being applied to others too. I think it's silliness applying those type of numbers to anybody, but if you feel they're valid for one, then they're applicable to others, which you clearly don't accept,,,,,,, because it doesn't fit the script.
    My original statement implied the more Bargnani plays and the better he does individually, the more losses for Toronto. The Raptors record supports the claim as well as numerous other statistics.

    Basically your argument would be akin to me telling you I am the Queen of England and you have to believe me because I said it is so. I am making statements/opinions based on what statistics and my experience watching Raptors games is telling me.

    If you want to talk about Rudy's steals in the same manner, go ahead. However Gay's arrival has coincided with a stretch of .500 ball with the majority of games versus playoff/+ .500 teams.

    If you want to talk Lowry's impact in the same manner, go ahead. However Lowry has a PER of 19.5 and an excellent WS.

    You see, you provided numbers but I provided evidence to the contrary. Take the comments and evidence as you please and will. But I have provided evidence of why your statement is hardly fool proof. I would love to see any shred of evidence or insight that supports the idea Bargnani DOES NOT make the Raptors worse this year.

    My conversation continues to be on the topic of Bargnani makes the Raptors worse this year. I don't have a sweet clue what you are talking about now. If you want to contribute to the topic at hand, please do. If you want to continue calling me dim witted or pushing an agenda because you don't like the evidence I bring forth to support a claim, go ahead.

    But I REALLY wish you could provide me something other than b.s. to show the Raptors are not a worse team with Bargnani this season.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #8986
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Here's the fact that bothers me the most about Bargnani. Excluding his rookie year, he has started 85% of games he's played in.
    Year 2 67.9%
    Year 3 75.6%
    Years 4,5,6 100%
    Year 7 70.6%

    Despite Bargnani's career never taking off, declining FG%, 3pt% and points in the past 3 years, he continues to be a key player on this team that hasn't been to the playoffs since Bargnani's sophomore year.

  7. #8987
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    p00ka, I think the issue is that most here (myself included) don't understand why you would spend this much time trying to show that anecdotal stats aren't worth much, without any care for what these stats are trying to show.

    In other words, if you believe that Bargnani is indeed a net-negative player, why do you care how that message is conveyed, if you concur with the overall message? It comes across as arguing for the sake of argument.

    Or, if you believe that Bargnani indeed has value as a basketball player, why hide around the idea that you're simply pointing out statistical flaws?
    Well, that hasn't been "the issue", not even "an issue" being discussed up to now, but isn't that a question that could apply to anyone who puts in time here? (why spend so much time doing what you do? as in the "you" being anybody). We all have our different focuses here, often heavily influenced by what else we encounter here, and mostly to fill a void.

    My original intent in coming here was to find a place to engage in knowledgeable and objective (yes that includes being reasonably critical) discussion about the team I love to follow. That's been difficult to find, imo, and I've somewhat found myself in a bit of a rut trying to combat what I feel is over the top negativism that feeds off, and grows, from shit like this. I guess I've become almost as stubborn about presenting an alternative view here, and maybe helping to change some mindsets, as I am about my passion for a team that loses so much.

  8. #8988
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    My guess is it's because pooka thinks math and facts actually matter, even when what you are presenting is just an "opinion". You can argue that Bargnani sucks for a ton of reasons, but when you bring "facts" and stats into your argument, they really should actually, you know, mean something. And the ones being presented don't actually mean anything because you can't prove causality or correlation between Bargnani's individual stats and those of the team as a whole. Mathematically speaking, I mean.

    If you're just trying to add to a narrative, it's fine, but there's no actual value to using those stats the way people are using them here. They are completely meaningless as related to the argument at hand.
    Exactly what my point has been, and I thought I made it quite clear. If your summary helps clear it up, I thank you.

  9. #8989
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    Matt, if you wish to carry on using "facts" that are meaningless to the argument you wish to make, what can I say, but have a nice day, and have fun, eh.

  10. #8990
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Well, that hasn't been "the issue", not even "an issue" being discussed up to now, but isn't that a question that could apply to anyone who puts in time here? (why spend so much time doing what you do? as in the "you" being anybody). We all have our different focuses here, often heavily influenced by what else we encounter here, and mostly to fill a void.

    My original intent in coming here was to find a place to engage in knowledgeable and objective (yes that includes being reasonably critical) discussion about the team I love to follow. That's been difficult to find, imo, and I've somewhat found myself in a bit of a rut trying to combat what I feel is over the top negativism that feeds off, and grows, from shit like this. I guess I've become almost as stubborn about presenting an alternative view here, and maybe helping to change some mindsets, as I am about my passion for a team that loses so much.
    I get what you're saying. It just seems odd that while some are using stats to discuss/argue (in this case) Bargnani, you're using stats to discuss/argue statistical integrity. It seems rather off-topic.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Mar 7th, 2013 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Type-o
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  11. #8991
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I get what you're saying. It just seems odds that while some are using stats to discuss/argue (in this case) Bargnani, you're using stats to discuss/argue statistical integrity. It seems rather off-topic.
    I don't know how it could be more on-topic, actually. By using meaningless stats to discuss/argue a point, you render the discussion/argument meaningless. No statistical integrity = no meaning and no use to the argument. There has to be some validity to the points on either side of a debate, doesn't there? In this debate, one side is arguing that their meaningless data points have actual merit, and the other side is arguing that they don't.

    It's not really a debate about Bargnani at all, anymore.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  12. #8992
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I don't know how it could be more on-topic, actually. By using meaningless stats to discuss/argue a point, you render the discussion/argument meaningless. No statistical integrity = no meaning and no use to the argument. There has to be some validity to the points on either side of a debate, doesn't there? In this debate, one side is arguing that their meaningless data points have actual merit, and the other side is arguing that they don't.

    It's not really a debate about Bargnani at all, anymore.
    That's exactly why it's off topic.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #8993
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    That's exactly why it's off topic.
    I don't think I've ever seen a thread that became so stupid

    The original point was: we should start bargnani so we can get more out of him.

    Everyone agrees that this is a bad idea, but are willing to insult each oother over the methodologies of arriving at that conclusion.... Retarded

  14. #8994
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Very close to closing this. This thread has strayed it's course.

    Is Bargnani better starting? He's had 3 solid games since coming back into the first five.

  15. #8995
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen a thread that became so stupid

    The original point was: we should start bargnani so we can get more out of him.

    Everyone agrees that this is a bad idea, but are willing to insult each oother over the methodologies of arriving at that conclusion.... Retarded
    yep... somehow my stripper analogy a few pages back became one of the most constructive arguments in the thread.....

  16. #8996
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Matt, if you wish to carry on using "facts" that are meaningless to the argument you wish to make, what can I say, but have a nice day, and have fun, eh.
    Enjoy your day as well.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #8997
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I don't know how it could be more on-topic, actually. By using meaningless stats to discuss/argue a point, you render the discussion/argument meaningless. No statistical integrity = no meaning and no use to the argument. There has to be some validity to the points on either side of a debate, doesn't there? In this debate, one side is arguing that their meaningless data points have actual merit, and the other side is arguing that they don't.

    It's not really a debate about Bargnani at all, anymore.
    It has always been about Bargnani on my end - specifically the Raptors are worse with him.

    If there is any way to show how the Raptors are better with him, please enlighten me. I asked p00ka but all I got was theoretical jibberish.

    We can look at win shares, defensive rating, +/-.... whatever you choose which all show credible reasons for the state of wins and losses with a whole load of variables but they all have the one constant: Bargnani.


    Can anyone support this claim:

    This season, the Raptors are better WITH Bargnani.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #8998
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    wow, i had to take tums after reading the back and forth between pooka, matt and nilanka. and im still confused as to where pooka stands.

  19. #8999
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It has always been about Bargnani on my end - specifically the Raptors are worse with him.

    If there is any way to show how the Raptors are better with him, please enlighten me. I asked p00ka but all I got was theoretical jibberish.

    We can look at win shares, defensive rating, +/-.... whatever you choose which all show credible reasons for the state of wins and losses with a whole load of variables but they all have the one constant: Bargnani.


    Can anyone support this claim:

    This season, the Raptors are better WITH Bargnani.
    Pooka didn't agree with one of your subarguments. That doesn't mean he has to provide arguments in favour of the complete opposite view, which somehow, quite weirdly, you appear to want him to do. I didn't see any theoretical jibberish as well; the only problem with his argument I see (in this debate) is the confrontational (frontpage comment section) attitude he brings to the debate.

    Challenging a subargument isn't going off topic as well. That the thread isn't going anywhere anymore is, as with most debates on a forum, simply because no side is going to acknowledge being wrong or even acknowledge the point being made is not an unreasonable one.

  20. #9000
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    wow, i had to take tums after reading the back and forth between pooka, matt and nilanka. and im still confused as to where pooka stands.
    Read what Jimmie said and you'll get it. When in doubt, go with Jimmie, one of the most sensible posters on the site in any discussion. There's no reason to side against pooka's argument just because he's, well ... pooka.

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