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  • Somebody needs to test that Primo, it may not meet league regulations.

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    • A players trade value doesn't goes up an down like the stock market. Teams interested in help at the 3pt line are not going to trade for Derozan because he is shooting better then 40% from behind the arc. Some major decisions involving our front court need to be made eventually, but they can be put off until after the draft.

      It would be like Philly trying to cash out Andre Iguodala. He's a really good player, but they are not getting a whole lot. He's well compensated. Major holes in his game despite being that caliber of player. Doesn't carry your team in the clutch. Teams want to add a guy like that to their core, not break up their core to add a guy like that.

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        Source: The Star

        So Bargnani checks out and the offense struggles. He's been criticized for not being able to carry a team on his own after going #1 overall but it seems this year his contributions have been resulting in the Raptors being far more competitive. I'm almost hoping he doesn't play Friday, just to see how the team plays in his absence.
        i don't doubt that they'll miss his scoring, but it's not like they haven't had poor offensive games with him in the lineup. and yes, i get that he's 'done his part' in those losses (i believe we used to call that 'stat-padding'...sure glad we don't do that anymore). the bigger concern isn't so much that he's out of the lineup, but that they're already soooo thin elsewhere, that picking up the slack will be difficult if he's out. but let's be honest, they've lost some doozies this year, so if they lose without him, it may just be a case of it beimg slightly more doozier...likely the biggest impact is that they have a CHANCE to win if he's playing (though they've also got an equal chance of being blown out, based on what we've seen so far), and likely little chance of winning without him (and a proportionally higher likelihood of getting blown out).
        TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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        • The top scorers are usually given the green light right away to take as many shots as they want as soon as they come into the league. With that said, they usually reach putting up their best numbers earlier. Bargnani was only given that opportunity last season. In my opinion he's just scratching the surface and still has plenty of room to improve on both ends of the floor.

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          • has Bargs peaked?

            planetmars wrote: View Post
            Moderators please feel free to merge this into the Bargnani thread. I just wanted to start a discussion on this topic first.


            A lot of guys on the forum believe that Bargnani could be our franchise player. The way he's been playing the first 10 games has been a pleasant surprise. I still doubt if he can co-exist with a stud SF, but that's besides the point.

            Has Bargnani peaked this season? Is this season the best we will ever get from him?

            If we are a bad team now and are building towards the future, would it make more sense to trade Bargnani now while he has peaked before he degrades in performance?

            I found the following article today:
            http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012...-scorers-peak/

            It lists the average age that NBA top scorers have peaked. It shows that the average age is at around 25 years. There are some exceptions of course (Hakeem peaked at 32, Pettit at 29 and Robinson at 28), but for the most part a scorer peaked at 25/26.

            Bargnani is 26 this year. He'll be 27 next season and if he hasn't peaked this year there is a big chance he'll peak next year.

            The average number of years according to the article would be about 5 years. This year is Bargnani's 6th year.

            Is it worthwhile to keep Bargnani when we probably won't be a good team until 2014/2015, when Bargnani turns 29/30? I think Bargnani has been playing lights out, but I'm still not sold on him as a future piece for our core. If we trade Bargnani then we could move Davis into the starting rotation and try and land a better SF (or PG) or another lottery pick in 2012 so we can get younger assets that can grow together. Bargnani could play for another 7/8 years, but those years could be worse off than he's playing this year. Is that a gamble worth taking?

            I'm not blind to the fact that science and technology has improved since the 50's and 60's, so a player should be able to play longer at a more consistent level, but peaking and playing for a long time are two different things.

            I guess Bargnani has proven that he could be the exception to the rule. Play fairly lousy (ie, one dimensionally) for 5 years, and then play like he's an alien in his 6th year... so he may not fit the average nba'er - but I'm still worried that this might be the best we'll ever get from him.

            Thoughts?
            Some good points,however at this point I'm not sold on Ed....this might be his chance to show us something....Ed is great at put backs but his offence outside of put backs is so far a black hole.

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            • Whether he has peaked or not I don't think trading AB right now makes sense. Colangelo and Casey have stated they are now building and not "rebuilding", so trading our best player for prospects, draft picks etc.. whom would have to be brought up to speed is probably not part of the plans. How long AB maintains his peak or stays and effective player will determine if a move is called for, but trading a player that has just hit his peak isn't what a team starved for talent should be doing.

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              • If this is his best, seriously that's not too bad is it? Lets celebrate that he's finally playing like a #1.
                Peace. Positivity. Prosperity.

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                • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                  we need a everything DeRozan thread
                  hahahaha let the thrashing begin!

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                  • yertu damkule wrote: View Post
                    i don't doubt that they'll miss his scoring, but it's not like they haven't had poor offensive games with him in the lineup. and yes, i get that he's 'done his part' in those losses (i believe we used to call that 'stat-padding'...sure glad we don't do that anymore). the bigger concern isn't so much that he's out of the lineup, but that they're already soooo thin elsewhere, that picking up the slack will be difficult if he's out. but let's be honest, they've lost some doozies this year, so if they lose without him, it may just be a case of it beimg slightly more doozier...likely the biggest impact is that they have a CHANCE to win if he's playing (though they've also got an equal chance of being blown out, based on what we've seen so far), and likely little chance of winning without him (and a proportionally higher likelihood of getting blown out).
                    So now you're knocking him for performing even on nights where Casey can't get the team going? And on these nights you're saying he's padding his stats? Is he the guy calling the plays? Is he's the guy quarterbacking the offense? Is he's the guy who decides how many minutes he plays? I don't get it. It's not like he's out there going all "Corey Maggette" trying to get his at the expense of the team. I think you're grasping here, sorry.

                    If he weren't playing this season they'd have the worst offense in the league. It's not his job to be play maker by handling the ball a lot and looking for the open man. It's not his game and that's perfectly fine. It's not his problem that they don't have a lot of strong scorers out there with him anymore or that they have a coach who's obviously not a great offensive coordinator. That falls on the shoulders of Colangelo and you know what? It's fine. They're rebuilding, this stuff is to be expected and they're slowly putting the pieces together. If you want strong defense then in most cases you're going to sacrifice some offense. So what is it Raptors fans, do we want the excitement of "Phoenix North" or do we want to see a winning product like... Dare I say "San Antonio North"?

                    For a team with this level of talent, if a guy can enter the game and give them a chance to win on any given night, then that player is doing his job. I couldn't realistically expect much more out of Andrea so far. He's been outstanding more than not. I hope he keeps it up but we'll see...

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                    • The TNT crew last night were talking about how players are who they are, and that player's don't change personalities.

                      They also mentioned if your in the league 5 or 6 years, you are already the player you are going to be and that guys don't get better in years 7,8,9. Only one guy has ever done that - Steve Nash.

                      So for him to call out the team as mentally soft really, you of all people are going to say that.

                      Comment


                      • KingRaptors wrote: View Post
                        The TNT crew last night were talking about how players are who they are, and that player's don't change personalities.

                        They also mentioned if your in the league 5 or 6 years, you are already the player you are going to be and that guys don't get better in years 7,8,9. Only one guy has ever done that - Steve Nash.

                        So for him to call out the team as mentally soft really, you of all people are going to say that.
                        No there are a lot more than Nash. Alex English is another prime example who comes to mind.

                        Bargnani he never been accused of being mentally soft. He's been accused of being physically soft. He's been neither this season, he's the leader right now and so who else is going to say what needed to be said if it aint him?

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                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          So now you're knocking him for performing even on nights where Casey can't get the team going? And on these nights you're saying he's padding his stats? Is he the guy calling the plays? Is he's the guy quarterbacking the offense? Is he's the guy who decides how many minutes he plays? I don't get it. It's not like he's out there going all "Corey Maggette" trying to get his at the expense of the team. I think you're grasping here, sorry.

                          If he weren't playing this season they'd have the worst offense in the league. It's not his job to be play maker by handling the ball a lot and looking for the open man. It's not his game and that's perfectly fine. It's not his problem that they don't have a lot of strong scorers out there with him anymore or that they have a coach who's obviously not a great offensive coordinator. That falls on the shoulders of Colangelo and you know what? It's fine. They're rebuilding, this stuff is to be expected and they're slowly putting the pieces together. If you want strong defense then in most cases you're going to sacrifice some offense. So what is it Raptors fans, do we want the excitement of "Phoenix North" or do we want to see a winning product like... Dare I say "San Antonio North"?

                          For a team with this level of talent, if a guy can enter the game and give them a chance to win on any given night, then that player is doing his job. I couldn't realistically expect much more out of Andrea so far. He's been outstanding more than not. I hope he keeps it up but we'll see...
                          I think the "stat-padding" was in reference to all the geniuses who claimed Bosh was doing so while in Toronto. It was nonsense then, and it's nonsense today.

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                          • Apollo wrote: View Post
                            So now you're knocking him for performing even on nights where Casey can't get the team going? And on these nights you're saying he's padding his stats? Is he's the guy calling the plays? Is he's the guy quarterbacking the offense? Is he's the guy who decides how many minutes he plays? I don't get it. I watch the games and it's not like he's out there going all "Corey Maggette" trying to get his at the expense of the team. I think you're grasping here, sorry.
                            no, i was taking a dig at some of our more fervent bargnani supporters who, in bygone days, would complain about a since-departed raptor 'padding his stats' in losses. i'm not knocking bargs, i've found his effort to be consistently impressive regardless of game situation; what i'm saying is that whether he's in the lineup or not, the team - as a whole - is so weak &/or inconsistent that his good play is often inconsequential in the grand scheme. so yes, missing him will hurt, but it's not as though they'd go from 5 pt favourites with him to 15 pt dogs without him. with or without him, i don't think the raps have much of a shot...but that's mainly because i think the pacers are simply a better team.

                            Apollo wrote: View Post
                            If he weren't playing this season they'd have the worst offense in the league.
                            maybe. luckily they have have him, and are at least respectable. sort of.

                            Apollo wrote: View Post
                            It's not his job to be play maker by handling the ball a lot and looking for the open man. It's not his game and that's perfectly fine. It's not his problem that they don't have a lot of strong scorers out there with him anymore or that they have a coach who's obviously not a great offensive coordinator. That falls on the shoulders of Colangelo and you know what? It's fine. They're rebuilding, this stuff is to be expected and they're slowly putting the pieces together. If you want strong defense then in most cases you're going to sacrifice some offense. So what is it Raptors fans, do we want the excitement of "Phoenix North" or do we want to see a winning product like... Dare I say "San Antonio North"?
                            i agree completely that casey's prime objective is to create a permanent defensive mentality/identity. but i disagree (at least somewhat) with your examples...there's no reason to believe that a team cannot be a good defensive team (which the raptors are moving towards being) and a good offensive team. no one's clamouring for PHX north (and to be honest, that whole idea was much ado about nothing). but using the spurs is a bit of a nonsequitor, since they could always score, they just made sure it was harder for their opposition to do so. a more apt example of an all-D, no-O team would be the bucks or kitties, no? neither option (all-O, or all-D) is appealing...need balance (paging demar...).

                            Apollo wrote: View Post
                            For a team with this level of talent, if a guy can enter the game and give them a chance to win on any given night, then that player is doing his job. I couldn't realistically expect much more out of Andrea so far. He's been outstanding more than not. I hope he keeps it up but we'll see...
                            hey, me too. it's early, so there's time for development (if not improvement) from everyone. just hope those pulling the strings are cognizant of the past...
                            TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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                            • Not every single player on your team needs to " peak" offensively at the same time to win a championship. Its the right mix of old vets, young vets and developing bench players all getting together the right mix at the right time. When (yeah I said when) we win an NBA championship we will likely (almost certainly) have a rookie on the roster. He will not have peaked but he will be developing in a winning culture and learning from the starters to continue that legacy of winning. We might have a player retire right after the championship year but he was still a key piece of a winning team.

                              Even if this is Bargniai's best year for scoring stats doesn't mean he isn't still valuable in the future.

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                              • yertu damkule wrote: View Post
                                i agree completely that casey's prime objective is to create a permanent defensive mentality/identity. but i disagree (at least somewhat) with your examples...there's no reason to believe that a team cannot be a good defensive team (which the raptors are moving towards being) and a good offensive team. no one's clamouring for PHX north (and to be honest, that whole idea was much ado about nothing). but using the spurs is a bit of a nonsequitor, since they could always score, they just made sure it was harder for their opposition to do so. a more apt example of an all-D, no-O team would be the bucks or kitties, no? neither option (all-O, or all-D) is appealing...need balance (paging demar...)
                                I'm not talking about posting 95-100 PPG, I'm talking about no longer posting 100-110 PPG. Gone are the days of "we need 100 shots". The emphasis now is on playing great defense and efficiently on offense.

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