View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #9521
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Siena Montepaschi.... lol.
    #FREE

  2. #9522
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote AJ360 wrote: View Post
    If the best you can do is Biedrins you might as well bust out the amnesty clause.
    Then you are still over the salary cap with no way to add salary other than exceptions. If you move him for an expiring like Biedrins you can at least have a hand in the game come the trade deadline.

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  4. #9523
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    So trade Demar for a draft pick? In this draft year? No.



    They don't hold the rights for any unsigned players either.



    If he moves Demar it won't be from this present situation of weakness, that's for sure.
    You don't see the value in 22m in expiring contracts?

    You don't think there will be a single player who will attain volume scorer and average starter in this draft class?

    You think DD is worth $9.5m?

    This draft is weak from star standpoint but there are a lot of quality players available if you read comments from GMs.

    I am surprised people still only see DD for a draft pick and I am surprised people think he has more value at this time. Bargnani is a perfect example of the dangers of playing the potential card 4+ seasons into the league.

  5. #9524
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You don't see the value in 22m in expiring contracts?

    You don't think there will be a single player who will attain volume scorer and average starter in this draft class?

    You think DD is worth $9.5m?

    This draft is weak from star standpoint but there are a lot of quality players available if you read comments from GMs.

    I am surprised people still only see DD for a draft pick and I am surprised people think he has more value at this time. Bargnani is a perfect example of the dangers of playing the potential card 4+ seasons into the league.
    The difference between the two is work-ethic. Bargnani is more naturally talented than DD, but DD is a harder worker. A gym rat. He improves on certain aspects of his game year after year. If he had coasted like Bargnani, and never worked that hard on his game he'd be nowhere near the player he is today.

    We're just saying give him one more year. We gave Bargnani 7 for fuck sakes.

  6. #9525
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    So many people seem so anxious to get rid of our young players but no one can agree on what any players value is or what we even want for them.

  7. #9526
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    The difference between the two is work-ethic. Bargnani is more naturally talented than DD, but DD is a harder worker. A gym rat. He improves on certain aspects of his game year after year. If he had coasted like Bargnani, and never worked that hard on his game he'd be nowhere near the player he is today.

    We're just saying give him one more year. We gave Bargnani 7 for fuck sakes.
    You know what the similarity is though? Inconsistent results.

    If I had $1 for every time I said that about Bargnani I'd be uber-rich. Now if I had $1 for every time a Raptor fan said it.... I'd own the internet.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #9527
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    I'm really not in favour of moving Ross but if we can sure up our PF position and get rid of Bargnani I would be all for it. Rumour is that Houston wants to clear cap space to go after Howard so they want picks (and none from this first round as they would count against cap space) and no salary. OKC has 2 1st round picks as well as the #2 2nd rounder of which the will surely not keep 3 newly drafted players.

    Toronto gets
    Perkins , Nick Collison ,Reggie Jackson & Thomas Robinson

    OKC gets
    Bargnani & Ross

    Houston gets
    OKC 2013 2nd Rounder(#32)
    TO 2015 1st Rounder

    Toronto should try to sign Corey Brewer as a back up SG/SF as their main free agent signing and we end up with a line up of roughly

    C - JV / Perkins / Gray
    PF - Amir / Robinson / Collison
    SF - Gay / Fields / Acy
    SG - DeRozan / Brewer /
    PG - Lowry / Jackson / JLIII

  9. #9528
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You know what the similarity is though? Inconsistent results.

    If I had $1 for every time I said that about Bargnani I'd be uber-rich. Now if I had $1 for every time a Raptor fan said it.... I'd own the internet.
    Inconsistent results? That's a similarity with almost EVERYONE in the league! Comparing Andrea to Demar is sooo ridiculous! Demar attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line better than ANYONE else on our team. He's a young up and coming SG with one of the best midrange jumpers in the league. MLSE is willing to spend in and over the salary cap. I'm not as concerned about DD's salary as others are.

    IF it were up to me DD, JV and AMIR would be untouchable UNLESS we get massive upgrades at important positions. We can amnesty Bargs, or trade bargs with T Ross or Fields, use kleiza's expiring contract and get rid of any other player (Lowry and Gay) for teams looking for an upgrade in talent.

    I think Ujiri will FIRST try to get rid of useless/overpaid players such as Fields, Bargnani and Kleiza. That's like 20+ million for 3 useless players. That's how we can legitimately upgrade our talent/cap situation without affecting the current nucleus.

    We need to GET OVER the mistakes with Bargnani (who is really just an enigma). Comparing him to others on the roster is bordering on childish and willful blindness.....Let's take the emotion out of this.

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  11. #9529
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Ok if you're saying DD is as inconsistent as Andrea you're crazy.

    You can't play make-believe GM and get all into detail about cap space and trade options but then over-generalize everything when you're grading a players game. $9.5 mil is pocket change for MLSE.

    Like I've said before, Derozan has vowed to add a 3-point shot to his game, and the guy has yet to fail at coming back with something new or improved each season. Bargnani never came back with anything new, why would we give Bargs 7 years but not let a guy who has proved himself each season another year to prove himself yet-again? If he fails, we can say goodbye, but the guy has earned his take at another shot.

  12. #9530
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Inconsistent results? That's a similarity with almost EVERYONE in the league! Comparing Andrea to Demar is sooo ridiculous! Demar attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line better than ANYONE else on our team. He's a young up and coming SG with one of the best midrange jumpers in the league. MLSE is willing to spend in and over the salary cap. I'm not as concerned about DD's salary as others are.

    IF it were up to me DD, JV and AMIR would be untouchable UNLESS we get massive upgrades at important positions. We can amnesty Bargs, or trade bargs with T Ross or Fields, use kleiza's expiring contract and get rid of any other player (Lowry and Gay) for teams looking for an upgrade in talent.

    I think Ujiri will FIRST try to get rid of useless/overpaid players such as Fields, Bargnani and Kleiza. That's like 20+ million for 3 useless players. That's how we can legitimately upgrade our talent/cap situation without affecting the current nucleus.

    We need to GET OVER the mistakes with Bargnani (who is really just an enigma). Comparing him to others on the roster is bordering on childish and willful blindness.....Let's take the emotion out of this.
    Fields isn't useless
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  13. #9531
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Fields isn't useless
    IMO he's useless AND more importantly OVERPAID....He can't score and he can't shut anyone down. OH Wow...he can move without the ball??? Is it really hard to find someone cheaper who can move without the ball?? Dude isnt even a reliable finisher around the rim....doesnt get to the free throw line and doesnt shoot a good percentage at the line. Fields was a MISTAKE signing. We tried to get Nash and it blew up in our face!

    Let's be honest about that!! Fields, Bargnani and Kleiza should be the first players to go.

  14. #9532
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Inconsistent results? That's a similarity with almost EVERYONE in the league! Comparing Andrea to Demar is sooo ridiculous! Demar attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line better than ANYONE else on our team. He's a young up and coming SG with one of the best midrange jumpers in the league. MLSE is willing to spend in and over the salary cap. I'm not as concerned about DD's salary as others are.

    IF it were up to me DD, JV and AMIR would be untouchable UNLESS we get massive upgrades at important positions. We can amnesty Bargs, or trade bargs with T Ross or Fields, use kleiza's expiring contract and get rid of any other player (Lowry and Gay) for teams looking for an upgrade in talent.

    I think Ujiri will FIRST try to get rid of useless/overpaid players such as Fields, Bargnani and Kleiza. That's like 20+ million for 3 useless players. That's how we can legitimately upgrade our talent/cap situation without affecting the current nucleus.

    We need to GET OVER the mistakes with Bargnani (who is really just an enigma). Comparing him to others on the roster is bordering on childish and willful blindness.....Let's take the emotion out of this.
    Everyone in the NBA is talented - everyone. You don't get to the NBA without being talented. The difference between talent and star players is consistency. The bigger the star, the more the consistency. You should be concerned about DeRozan's salary. When you pay someone that much money, you should be getting consistency. When DD is not scoring, what does he give you? When DD is pussily throwing up lay ups and the refs swallow the whistle in disgust, what does he give you?

    Best midrange game in the NBA? OK sure. If you call 139th in the league from 16-24th feet 'one of the best' they, sure, fine. Personally, I don't call making 41.4% of the worst shot in basketball anything to be proud of.

    The current nucleus is not good enough, haven't you heard? It is why BryCo is out. It was a major difference of opinion with the man now in charge.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  16. #9533
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    IMO he's useless AND more importantly OVERPAID....He can't score and he can't shut anyone down. OH Wow...he can move without the ball??? Is it really hard to find someone cheaper who can move without the ball?? Dude isnt even a reliable finisher around the rim....doesnt get to the free throw line and doesnt shoot a good percentage at the line. Fields was a MISTAKE signing. We tried to get Nash and it blew up in our face!

    Let's be honest about that!! Fields, Bargnani and Kleiza should be the first players to go.
    His contract aside, Landry Fields had/has nerve damage to his arm causing his shooting woes. For confirmation of his playing capabilities please research his rookie year with the Knicks and his considered value when they refused to trade him in the Melo deal. He is also a good team guy and person. Hope he bounces back.

  17. #9534
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Ok if you're saying DD is as inconsistent as Andrea you're crazy.

    You can't play make-believe GM and get all into detail about cap space and trade options but then over-generalize everything when you're grading a players game. $9.5 mil is pocket change for MLSE.

    Like I've said before, Derozan has vowed to add a 3-point shot to his game, and the guy has yet to fail at coming back with something new or improved each season. Bargnani never came back with anything new, why would we give Bargs 7 years but not let a guy who has proved himself each season another year to prove himself yet-again? If he fails, we can say goodbye, but the guy has earned his take at another shot.
    Who said "DD is as inconsistent as Andrea"? Not me. But that statement alone acknowledges DD is in fact inconsistent which is the point. I would not say DD is as inconsistent as Andrea this past season but AB prior to this season, I think that is a fair statement. Look through DD's game logs from this past year. Look at the field goals percentages, look at the free throw attempts, look at the rebounds, look at the assists. INCONSISTENT.

    What is overgeneralizing about DD's game?

    He is a SG who can't dribble or shoot from deep.
    He doesn't consistently create for others.
    He does not consistently rebound.
    He does not play sound defense.
    He is never asked to guard the other team's best perimeter threat.
    He is an athlete with neither blinding speed or explosiveness.
    He is a slasher with no first step.

    $9.5M is certainly pocket change to MLSE. Unfortunately it is 16.4% of the salary cap and 23% of the $40.9M (which is 71% of the salary cap!) the Raptors have allocated to the wing next season at this point. It is not about MLSE being able to afford it. It is about finding value in contracts due to the limitations of the CBA. Value is something that will never be associated with DeRozan.

    DeRozan has not earned anything - he certainly did not earn a $38M contract. I might seem like a dickhead here but I am thinking minus any emotion. I'm not sure others can say the same. But just to humour the notion, what happens when after year 5 DD fails and the Raptors are trying to move a $28.5M contract for a shooting guard with the attributes I listed above?

    As for make-believe GM. I have laid about a scenario where the Raptors add 2 draft picks, gain $22M in expiring contracts for the trade deadline or have over $20M in cap space next summer. I root for the good of the Raptors over any individual player.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #9535
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The current nucleus is not good enough, haven't you heard? It is why BryCo is out. It was a major difference of opinion with the man now in charge.
    I think the issue some fans have is they like the individual that DeRozan is. They like his work ethic, but ultimately Matt is correct. Shooting 41% at the least valuable shot in basketball is not worth 9.5 million dollars. If he maintained that shooting percentage but also offered lock down defense 5 assists and 5 boards a game...now you are talking some value. DeRozan may play up to that contract in two or three years, but he isn't worth it now. Although I love a lot of things about the guy, if I take my heart out of it only the facts remain. 41% from 2, average handles, average rebounds, average passing, average defense, and the killer 28% from three.

    Everyone in the NBA is talented - everyone
    I explained that to my nephews once when they kept saying "oh this player sucks". I said "take the 15th man off any D-League team and that guy will crush you."

  19. #9536
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You don't see the value in 22m in expiring contracts?

    You don't think there will be a single player who will attain volume scorer and average starter in this draft class?

    You think DD is worth $9.5m?

    This draft is weak from star standpoint but there are a lot of quality players available if you read comments from GMs.

    I am surprised people still only see DD for a draft pick and I am surprised people think he has more value at this time. Bargnani is a perfect example of the dangers of playing the potential card 4+ seasons into the league.
    1. Why are you putting words in my mouth? I SEE where the value is... I also SEE an incredibly mediocre team. Want to get better, trade from STRENGTH. Want to get worse/ stay on the mediocrity treadmill keep doing these stupid, rash, quick fix trades.

    2. The question needs to be not what is DD's value now, but rather can he increase his value? I believe he can. Though his FG% is lower than it should be 2 things pop out for me: How often he gets to the line, and where he gets his shots from. Using simple logic here, if Demar simply changes where he shoots from (takes more shots from higher % regions) he will improve. That might be incremental, but starting SGs are becoming a scarcity, and quite frankly 9.5 Mill isn't a lot for a scarce commodity.

    3.Can the Raps do better? Sure, but I think you need to watch more NCAA/Euroleague before you talk about prospects. This year was bad. SO BAD, especially at the wing positions. Don't be surprised if a lot of bigs move up the board for the simple reason that they have size, and not potential, or talent. The spin scouts are putting on the draft now is comical. IF there's so much talent then why is a kid who played 2nd Div. in Greece who is YEARS from being ready being touted as a mid first round pick?

    IF your ludicrous trade worked and the Raps-- with a scouting staff that everyone on this board makes fun of-- picks a gem you're still talking about a 2-3 year wait for that player to be where Demar is now. This is the wrong draft year for that thinking.

    4. Personally I don't see trading Demar, but that doesn't mean I would be upset if he was moved. But IF he was moved I would rather the Raps already have assets. Trading Demar for a quick fix, or from such a pathetic state will only lead to getting garbage in return. Think about it, what gets you more? Demar and filler, or adding Demar to a Barganani trade? Seriously.

    Also, people spotted the issues with Bargnani EARLY! A lot of people. It was obvious. He played lackadaisical for Toronto, and then would play just as nonchalantly for Italy... Even Shaq spotted it, telling Italians that Gallinari was better. Friggin Shaq! (When Bellinelli left I told my best friend that we let the wrong Italian go-- that was a long time ago.) We wondered why Colangelo overpaid for him, complained every year except 2011-2012 when we backed off and then were finally accepted as being correct this past season.

    Demar is a different beast. Is he worth the contract? Time will tell, but no one doubts that he will at least try to play up to it. That's a start, and as a fan who believes that teams are built from their basketball philosophy out that's what I want incoming players to see. If Toronto gets a reputation for paying above market for players that bust their tail, that if you don't work the fans will boo you, but if you put in effort you'll be cheered I would be cool with that. That's much better than rewarding laziness (Bargs, "Ball!"), trading hard workers (ED, Jose), stupidly high player turnover every year, and firing your best head coach.

    That's the kind of behavior that led to good free agents not coming to Toronto. Want it to continue? Trade a respected player for a draft pick in a crappy draft, and see what kind of "player" wants to come fill that salary cap space.

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  21. #9537
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    IMO he's useless AND more importantly OVERPAID....He can't score and he can't shut anyone down. OH Wow...he can move without the ball??? Is it really hard to find someone cheaper who can move without the ball?? Dude isnt even a reliable finisher around the rim....doesnt get to the free throw line and doesnt shoot a good percentage at the line. Fields was a MISTAKE signing. We tried to get Nash and it blew up in our face!

    Let's be honest about that!! Fields, Bargnani and Kleiza should be the first players to go.
    Crazy fun facts:

    under 5ft DD shot 59.5%
    under 5ft LF shot 55.1% - the same as Eric Bledsoe and Paul Pierce and better than Joakim Noah (54.8%)

    on the season DD shot 44.5%
    on the season LF shot 45.7%
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  23. #9538
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    Don't think anyone thought of this but what about Bargnani for Kris Humphries and possibly the Nets 2013 first round pick? Hump is an expiring contract and he's still useful as a rebounding PF.

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  25. #9539
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Back to Bargnani.... imagine a Bargnani thread getting derailed!

    John Wall do we have a 4-man for you!

    “I don’t know,” Wall said of his hopes for the pick during a Red Bull-sponsored event at Gallaudet University on Saturday night. “It’s up in the air right now. I feel like we need a four man that can pick and pop, so we’ll just see.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...the-no-3-pick/
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  26. #9540
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote DG88 wrote: View Post
    Don't think anyone thought of this but what about Bargnani for Kris Humphries and possibly the Nets 2013 first round pick? Hump is an expiring contract and he's still useful as a rebounding PF.
    It has been mentioned before but, yes, done in a heart beat - with or without the pick.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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