View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #941
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Why do you say that? How much did you watch him in Memphis? What improved was people's perception of him because he suddenly went to a winning team. Remember how upset the rest of the league was when the Lakers traded for Pau. It wasn't because he was a below average defensive player.

    And the year they won 50 games, Memphis was middle of the pack both in FG% allowed and points given up. Two years later they were one of the better defensive teams in the league, tops in points given up and 6th in FG% allowed. The next season Gasol was traded to the Lakers.

    I don't mean to be blunt, but do you even know what you're talking about in discussing Memphis and Gasol? Your original assertion that Memphis was a bad defensive team is simply not even close to the truth and I don't think you watched much of Gasol when he was in Memphis.

    A lot of the defense of Bargnani has been pointing out guys who have made big improvements in defense (whether real or imagined) and saying that Bargnani could make just as big an improvement. In other words, many of you seem to be banking on lottery-like odds and talking about them as if it's a sure thing. Yes, Bargnani could make a drastic improvement on defense. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Of course, the same odds say that Amir Johnson could become a 20-10 player, Jarrett Jack could be a top five assist man, and the Raptors could win 50 games next season. None of that is out of the realm of possibility, but it's highly unlikely.
    Actually, I have no idea where this discussion is going LOL. How did Gasol and Memphis pop out here? :/ HAHA. Well no way Bargs will become like Pau, plus Pau was already really good (20-10 pretty much in his whole career in memphis) so yeah. We close this, cause it's leading no where. LOL.
    I was wondering, Pau was a PF right?

  2. #942
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Actually, I have no idea where this discussion is going LOL. How did Gasol and Memphis pop out here? :/ HAHA. Well no way Bargs will become like Pau, plus Pau was already really good (20-10 pretty much in his whole career in memphis) so yeah. We close this, cause it's leading no where. LOL.
    I was wondering, Pau was a PF right?
    Pau's name was brought up because whoever it was felt he was an example of a player who went from a bad defensive player in Memphis to a good one with the Lakers, apparently predicting a similar path for Bargnani. Unfortunately the premise was flawed since Gasol wasn't the bad defender in Memphis some thought.

    And Gasol played center in Memphis, which was the problem, defensively. He simply wasn't physically strong enough to defend the position well against the bigger, stronger centers. When he moved to PF with the Lakers, it took more advantage of his strengths on defense.

  3. #943
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Pau's name was brought up because whoever it was felt he was an example of a player who went from a bad defensive player in Memphis to a good one with the Lakers, apparently predicting a similar path for Bargnani. Unfortunately the premise was flawed since Gasol wasn't the bad defender in Memphis some thought.

    And Gasol played center in Memphis, which was the problem, defensively. He simply wasn't physically strong enough to defend the position well against the bigger, stronger centers. When he moved to PF with the Lakers, it took more advantage of his strengths on defense.
    I have watched probably ever game he has played with the Lakers since he came to them and it appears to me that he has gotten stronger, probably primarily in his base and legs. He had a lot of trouble with the stronger bigs in his first season. Last season he did a lot better against the stronger bigs in holding his position and being able to back them down.
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  4. #944
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post

    I followed the Pistons for over 50 season, which is a hell of a long time to follow any team, and even living in Los Angeles they were always my favorite NBA basketball team ever since G. Yardley won the NBA scoring title and in the process became the first NBA player ever to score 2,000 points in one season.

    So my love affair with the Pistons was indeed long with a lot of ups and downs. Unfortunately mostly downs. Well enough of that for here.




    I am 30 years old. If the Toronto Raptors ever enjoy the amount of success that the Pistons have in my lifetime, I will die a happy man. (Hopefully some other good stuff happens to me in that period of time also... lol)

  5. #945
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    Quote Nick wrote: View Post
    Laughable. Do you understand what 7 foot centre who can stroke threes does to offences? Why the hell are Raptors fans so against Andrea?! Alls I keep hearing "I don't want him because he dosn't play defence." Get real! What players on the Raps did play defence????????? But ya lets single out Bargs, good strategy! You guys are all star basketball fans (huge thumb down)

    +100

  6. #946
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    I have watched probably ever game he has played with the Lakers since he came to them and it appears to me that he has gotten stronger, probably primarily in his base and legs. He had a lot of trouble with the stronger bigs in his first season. Last season he did a lot better against the stronger bigs in holding his position and being able to back them down.
    It's natural for players to get stronger as they get older. It's one reason why a lot of PFs are able to play center when they get older, despite them being undersized.

    Getting back to Bargnani, he's got the opposite problem Gasol did. Bargnani's best position (despite what some may say) is center because he defends big men in the post the best. His problem is defending the more mobile big man and team defense. Obviously a move to PF isn't going to help him in the least, as some feel.

    Quote RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    Quote Nick wrote:
    Laughable. Do you understand what 7 foot centre who can stroke threes does to offences? Why the hell are Raptors fans so against Andrea?! Alls I keep hearing "I don't want him because he dosn't play defence." Get real! What players on the Raps did play defence????????? But ya lets single out Bargs, good strategy! You guys are all star basketball fans (huge thumb down)
    +100
    Of course, no one is claiming that any other Raptors is going to be top ten in their position, are they? If people would stop making ridiculous claims about Bargnani, I'm sure there would be a lot fewer people "bashing" him.

  7. #947
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It's natural for players to get stronger as they get older. It's one reason why a lot of PFs are able to play center when they get older, despite them being undersized.

    Getting back to Bargnani, he's got the opposite problem Gasol did. Bargnani's best position (despite what some may say) is center because he defends big men in the post the best. His problem is defending the more mobile big man and team defense. Obviously a move to PF isn't going to help him in the least, as some feel.



    Of course, no one is claiming that any other Raptors is going to be top ten in their position, are they? If people would stop making ridiculous claims about Bargnani, I'm sure there would be a lot fewer people "bashing" him.
    If people are bashing Bargs because of so called ridiculous claims others make, then what does that say about them?
    Bargs was 5th in scoring for centers last season. So offensively at least, that puts him in the top ten doesn't it? Some people can look at the glass as half empty but I prefer to look at it as half full.

  8. #948
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    Quote RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    If people are bashing Bargs because of so called ridiculous claims others make, then what does that say about them?
    Bargs was 5th in scoring for centers last season. So offensively at least, that puts him in the top ten doesn't it? Some people can look at the glass as half empty but I prefer to look at it as half full.
    Monta Ellis was 6th in the entire NBA in scoring last season. I don't see anyone touting him as an MVP candidate. Being good at scoring is great. Being a below average rebounder and defender isn't. Especially when you're a big man.

    And when people talk about Bargnani being a top 10 center, when it's pretty obvious he is not, it's a normal reaction for people to comment. If people started talking about how Jose Calderon is a top 10 PG, I'm sure it will get a lot of reaction. Offensively, Calderon very well might be a top 10 point guard, but does that make him one of the ten best in the entire league?

  9. #949
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Monta Ellis was 6th in the entire NBA in scoring last season. I don't see anyone touting him as an MVP candidate. Being good at scoring is great. Being a below average rebounder and defender isn't. Especially when you're a big man.

    And when people talk about Bargnani being a top 10 center, when it's pretty obvious he is not, it's a normal reaction for people to comment. If people started talking about how Jose Calderon is a top 10 PG, I'm sure it will get a lot of reaction. Offensively, Calderon very well might be a top 10 point guard, but does that make him one of the ten best in the entire league?
    2 things.

    1. Monta is NEVER going to be in MVP contention because he hurts his team by scoring, Bargs doesn't hurt the Raps when he shoots (well sometimes). Monta takes the ball, plays 45 minutes and shoots over 20 times a game. If Bargnani shot 20 times a game and averaged that many minutes his points would sky rocket too.

    2. Bargs is not a top 10 center. There shouldn't even be a discussion. He's top 15 at best. Around there.

  10. #950
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    Man, this topic has gone waaay off course. I think the confusion is that most fans undervalue defense, so from that standpoint, Bargs is indeed a top 10 offensive center in the league. The guy asking the poll question needs to be more specific. Kind of the like the overrated / underrated polls - too many ways to slice the criteria. For that, Raps fans get a pass on delusion.

    That said, Bargs is one of the worst interior help defenders & rebounders in the league, (unfortunately no simple stat for help D, other than looking at ON/OFF unadjusted DRAT, see below...). To use a bad hockey analogy, on defense your C is kind of like your hockey goalie. So Bargs is akin a goalie who: (1) gives up too many rebounds, (2) can't stop second chance shots and (3) is out of position when the initial shooter passes the puck.

    And that is what puts him out of the top 10 of centers in the NBA.

    http://basketballvalue.com/teamplaye...=DESC&team=TOR

  11. #951
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    Anyone who blocks tim duncan 4 times in a game while he is matched up with him is a pretty good one on one defender. Give me another guy who blocked tim duncan 4 times in a game?

  12. #952
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    We ALL know bargs is easily a top 10 centre in the league, if not a top 10 player.
    Bargs is barely a top 10 player on the Raptors.

  13. #953
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    Quote ihatehaters wrote: View Post
    Bargs is barely a top 10 player on the Raptors.
    Funny. ha. ha. HA. -_-

  14. #954
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    2 things.

    1. Monta is NEVER going to be in MVP contention because he hurts his team by scoring, Bargs doesn't hurt the Raps when he shoots (well sometimes). Monta takes the ball, plays 45 minutes and shoots over 20 times a game. If Bargnani shot 20 times a game and averaged that many minutes his points would sky rocket too.

    2. Bargs is not a top 10 center. There shouldn't even be a discussion. He's top 15 at best. Around there.
    Agreed. On a side note, #1 explains why I have argued against trading for Monta Ellis when anyone has brought it up.

  15. #955
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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Anyone who blocks tim duncan 4 times in a game while he is matched up with him is a pretty good one on one defender. Give me another guy who blocked tim duncan 4 times in a game?
    This is what infuriates me. Bargnani had ONE game where he blocked Duncan's shot a bunch of times. Great. Every single player in the league has great games once in a while. Bringing up a time when Bargnani blocked someone four times, or when he did an up and under move against LeBron, or some other isolated situation is not an indication of how good a player someone is. The big problem with Bargnani is that he does NOTHING on a consistent basis. Bargnani also once grabbed 28 rebounds over two games, but unfortunately in the 2 games before and after those two (four games total) he totalled 23 rebounds, which averages out to just under 6 rpg.

    As I've said many times, Bargnani's only strength on defense is post defense against less mobile players. At this point in his career, Duncan is not mobile. When Bargnani starts being able to defend EVERYONE he faces well, then you'll have an argument. When he defends 1 out of every 4 or 5 players he faces well, then he's just a guy who doesn't defend the majority of players he faces very well.

  16. #956
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Agreed. On a side note, #1 explains why I have argued against trading for Monta Ellis when anyone has brought it up.
    Same here. Having Monta on our team kills our cap room, kills the development of our entire team, and kills our franchise for atleast a couple of years.

  17. #957
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It's natural for players to get stronger as they get older. It's one reason why a lot of PFs are able to play center when they get older, despite them being undersized.

    Getting back to Bargnani, he's got the opposite problem Gasol did. Bargnani's best position (despite what some may say) is center because he defends big men in the post the best. His problem is defending the more mobile big man and team defense. Obviously a move to PF isn't going to help him in the least, as some feel.
    I said that in my first ever post on RR HAHA. Yeah, plus on offence he can get passed his man and bring out the center. Just imagine we play Orlando. If Dwight is not in the paint that leaves ALOT of space for all the other players to at least get a lay-in. And if Dwight decides not to defend Bargs on the three point line, he can just shoot. And he does that awesome move on centers every now and then, he grabs the ball, pump fake then runs around the defender across the free throw line and dunk. I love that move. And he's also an underrated post defender. When big centers posted on him, he managed to defend pretty well, I don't have the stats with me, but I saw somewhere (Buddha?) that Bargs is one of the leagues best post defenders, as in other players who post on him have lower fg%...

  18. #958
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    This is what infuriates me. Bargnani had ONE game where he blocked Duncan's shot a bunch of times.
    As I've said many times, Bargnani's only strength on defense is post defense against less mobile players. At this point in his career, Duncan is not mobile. When Bargnani starts being able to defend EVERYONE he faces well, then you'll have an argument. When he defends 1 out of every 4 or 5 players he faces well, then he's just a guy who doesn't defend the majority of players he faces very well.
    Even if Bargs turns into all world one-on-one post defender, it still won't mean squat. His lack of awareness on help defense will still lead to wide open layups and dunks. People simply do not appreciate that aspect of defense, probably because there's no easy stat for that.

  19. #959
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Default Bargnani Ranked 37th In The Hoopsworld 2010-11 Top 50 Fantasy Rankings

    This probably belongs on the fantasy thread but I thought I would post it here because it might get more responses and discussion in "Everything Raptors"

    Of course the admins may use their insider tools to move it.

    Note that while Barg is ranked #37, Bosh is only ranked #27 probably because he will be the third banana playing for the "Southern. FL Heaters"

    1 Kevin Durant
    2 LeBron James
    3 Chris Paul
    4 Dirk Nowitzki
    5 Dwyane Wade
    6 Danny Granger
    7 Kobe Bryant
    8 Pau Gasol
    9 Stephen Curry
    10 Deron Williams
    11 Amar'e Stoudemire
    12 David Lee
    13 Josh Smith
    14 Gerald Wallace
    15 Chauncey Billups
    16 Jason Kidd
    17 Rajon Rondo
    18 Carmelo Anthony
    19 Andre Iguodala
    20 Brook Lopez
    21 Brandon Roy
    22 Steve Nash
    23 Joe Johnson
    24 Dwight Howard
    25 Al Horford

    26 Al Jefferson
    27 Chris Bosh
    28 Troy Murphy
    29 Carlos Boozer
    30 Monta Ellis
    31 Tyreke Evans
    32 David West
    33 Tim Duncan
    34 Paul Pierce
    35 Manu Ginobili
    36 Nene
    37 Andrea Bargnani
    38 Zach Randolph
    39 Marc Gasol
    40 Rudy Gay
    41 Kevin Love
    42 Mo Williams
    43 Marcus Camby
    44 Kevin Martin
    45 Stephen Jackson
    46 Darren Collison
    47 Antawn Jamison
    48 Jason Richardson
    49 Danilo Gallinari
    50 LaMarcus Aldridge
    Complete article here - LINK
    Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Mon Sep 6th, 2010 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Added missing link to source
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  20. #960
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    2 italians in the list

    Danilo is going to have a great year... If he shoots less threes. He is such a great athlete. Sadly, he's a better rebounder than Bargs. Better shooter, more athletic, quick and nearly as strong. And stands at 6'10". Beast.

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