View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #9921
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    I am so fucking confused right now. Some sites and tweets say that it's Bargnani for Camby, Novak, a 2016 first rounder and two second round picks while other say we only get the first rounder and other say we get the first round and only one second round pick. Which exactly is it? So confusing....

  2. #9922
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    I am so fucking confused right now. Some sites and tweets say that it's Bargnani for Camby, Novak, a 2016 first rounder and two second round picks while other say we only get the first rounder and other say we get the first round and only one second round pick. Which exactly is it? So confusing....
    As of now I see more sites with multiple picks.

    The only story I've found so far with a breakdown of each asset, which makes me hope the multiple pick angle is true....
    http://www.hoopsworld.com/bargnani-t...ovak-and-picks

    It both says the deal is on hold as they rework it with proper cap numbers, and that it is for multiple picks. It also breaks down the picks. So I REALLY hope this is what the deal ends up being.

    breakdown:
    The Knicks purportedly agreed to a deal with the Raptors that will send Marcus Camby, Steve Novak, a 2016 first-round pick, a 2017 second-round pick and 2014 second-round pick (via OKC) to Toronto for Andrea Bargnani.

  3. #9923
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    When I see this deal I keep thinking about Ujiri's comments about how building a playoff team is easy, but that's not the goal. The reason it comes to mind is because the former is exactly how NY is being run, and it's kinda what Grunwald always does as a good, but not great, GM. He puts together a team sure to make the playoffs and possibly provide some hope to fans of something bigger. But now he's patching it together just to keep the ship sailing, despite the fact that, as built, it will never make it to the promised land.

    Meanwhile Ujiri happily accepts basically no talent back in order to get 3 draft picks (hopefully, though I'm still not sad about one first rounder) and shed dead weight. Fully thinking big picture and not at all concerned about getting something useful for next year.

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  5. #9924
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Oh man, to follow up directly on my previous comment....

    Masai apparently had legit options in terms of bringing in a talent. I'm sure the overall cost and benefit made it unappealing, but all the more reason to have a bit of faith in him.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--wa...051633769.html

    Golden State offered Lee in a package for Toronto's Andrea Bargnani, sources said, but the Raptors made a deal with the New York Knicks to shed the final two years, $22.5 million on Bargnani's contract.
    He chose draft picks and a role player, rather than invest in a player with more money and similar limitations. Yeah Lee's a better player than Bargs, but he's just as bad a defender and can't shoot with quite as much range. It would have very much been a "playoff" deal, and not something that's building for the long-term future. I do prefer the Novak deal to any possible Lee trade. IMO, there's no way the Raptors would have come out winners in a Lee deal. Probably would have had to give up pick(s) and/or Ross on top of Bargs to get it done. But on the Novak deal, the Raps are clear winners, absolutely mugging the Knicks and getting rid of Bargs...even if Bargs breaks out like he never has before, that clearly was never going to happen in TO.

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  7. #9925
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    Totally indifferent. Novak's a nice player. A fringe rotation guy you put in for shooting. Keep him...Trade him...whatever...just happy Bargs is gone.

  8. #9926
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    Quote RepRaptorsintheUSA wrote: View Post
    I am not happy, but i am optimistic. Off the bench Novak can help. His defense has to get better. I thought that was where the commitment was. This move is not improving our defense (Keep in mind we have LOST Bargs & JL3). We have PLENTY of experience with 3pt shooters who get the crowd hype, but after the buzzer we end up losing the game. That has been Toronto Raptor basketball since the franchise was started. I feel Novak just replaced JL3. I expect him to get less minutes than JL3 as a matter of fact. It's a wash to me. No loss, no gain.

    Camby is a consultant. The picks are the best part of this deal to me. Bargaining chips, new prospects....either way it is better than the situation we had this year.

    What i like:
    Bargs & BC are gone. The debacle is finally over.
    New ownership & GM are making moves & seem committed to compete.
    Telfair is now officially the back up PG
    Ross has to work on his game, or ride pine and watch Novak shoot 3's.

    Still not happy.
    Says....you? He's a free agent. Why would they bring him back?

  9. #9927
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Oh man, to follow up directly on my previous comment....

    Masai apparently had legit options in terms of bringing in a talent. I'm sure the overall cost and benefit made it unappealing, but all the more reason to have a bit of faith in him.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--wa...051633769.html



    He chose draft picks and a role player, rather than invest in a player with more money and similar limitations. Yeah Lee's a better player than Bargs, but he's just as bad a defender and can't shoot with quite as much range. It would have very much been a "playoff" deal, and not something that's building for the long-term future. I do prefer the Novak deal to any possible Lee trade. IMO, there's no way the Raptors would have come out winners in a Lee deal. Probably would have had to give up pick(s) and/or Ross on top of Bargs to get it done. But on the Novak deal, the Raps are clear winners, absolutely mugging the Knicks and getting rid of Bargs...even if Bargs breaks out like he never has before, that clearly was never going to happen in TO.
    I pretty much agree with you here.

    I can't imagine the talked about Lee for Bargs deal was a simple one for one. That would be a complete and utter steal for the Raptors. A significantly better and more diverse offensive player, a signficantly better rebounder, while being a comparable defender (even there I'd still take Lee over Bargnani on defense - Lee made a name for himself at Sloan for his league worst rim protection (not exactly a suprise), but Bargnani didn't even get within 5 feet enough to make the sample size cut (not exactly a suprise either)) for a few more mil a year, and one more year.

    As for the Raptors being clear winners in this deal - a postcard from NY in exchange for Bargnani may have made the Raptors clear winners in the deal to. I don't see this deal making the team better (aside for addition by subtraction), but I expect it starts to clean up the financial mess left by BC, and nets the team a late pick to boot.

  10. #9928
    Raptors Republic Superstar rocwell's Avatar
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    I'm happy we have traded Bargs, and I'm also happy Masai declined GSW offer. Thank god. Lee got $44M left on his contract and he's most awful defender I ever saw. Even bargnani was better.

  11. #9929
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    Need Raptors jersey with Masai's name.... As he's the only person, who's going to stay here longterm for sure... lol, and I doubt about most of the others.
    #FREE

  12. #9930
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    For me, this is the truly stunning result of this trade:

    "Amazingly, the Knicks have now traded away their first round pick in 2014 and 2016, as well as their second-round picks in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017....Not only will the Knicks be over the cap, but now the earliest first or even second-round draft pick New York can include in a deal would be a selection in the 2018 draft."

  13. #9931
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    ...I can't imagine the talked about Lee for Bargs deal was a simple one for one. That would be a complete and utter steal for the Raptors. A significantly better and more diverse offensive player, a signficantly better rebounder, while being a comparable defender (even there I'd still take Lee over Bargnani on defense - Lee made a name for himself at Sloan for his league worst rim protection (not exactly a suprise), but Bargnani didn't even get within 5 feet enough to make the sample size cut (not exactly a suprise either)) for a few more mil a year, and one more year....
    Here's a quote from the link in RuebenJRD's post above:

    "First of all, David Lee is an absolutely awful defender. With Bargnani, we all knew the help side defense was always his worst liability, but he was always able to stay in front of his match-up and guard them straight up. David Lee is a bad help defender, rarely there on time, and canít guard a single big in the league; poor lateral quicks, and bad court awareness.
    David Lee also has a terrible contract, and with the new collective bargaining agreement plus the salary make-up of this current team with Fields, DeRozan, and Rudy, it would have put this team in a bad spot. Lee roughly has $44 million dollars left for 3 years! Goodness, talk about overpaid."

    http://www.raptorscage.ca/why-the-to...-the-warriors/

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  15. #9932
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    Hahahahha yes! What a trade! I thank the Knicks for being this stupid!

  16. #9933
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    I did not read through all the pages of this thread but I did not see it mentioned that the pick is protected in a manner.

    The first-round pick claimed by Toronto in 2016 could be the Knicks’ or the Denver Nuggets’, whichever is worse, because the Nuggets have the right to swap picks that year.
    New York Times

  17. #9934
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    "Should we be happy"?

    We got rid of Bargnani and his contract without having to take on a larger contract of Boozer or Gasol so yes I'm happy. That 2016 first rounder is intriguing to me.

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  19. #9935
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    Asset Management!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  20. #9936
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    yes we should be super happy. I think were one trade a way from having a legit playoff team, i hate to say but if we trade demar for bledsoe (or whatever makes it workout) and pickup delfino who has been waived our lineup looks like this.

    Lowry, Bledsoe
    Fields/Ross, Ross/fields
    Gay,Delfino,Novak
    Amir, Novak, Acy
    Jv, Gray

    LK is still in there and i wish camby was in as a C then i would be very happy about this team moving forward. Hell im already happy but i may actually be jumping around a little...

  21. #9937
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    I did not read through all the pages of this thread but I did not see it mentioned that the pick is protected in a manner.



    New York Times
    Yeah, but that's hardly a problem

    -First, the pick would've been (and still may be) protected anyway. As in, lottery protected.
    -Second, this assures that even if the Knicks pick is in the lottery, the Raptors still get Denver's lower pick if they decide to swap.

    Thus, the swap pretty much guarantees that the Raps get a 1st round pick in 2016, though it also guarantees that it will not be a high pick. At least that's how I see it.

  22. #9938
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Here's a quote from the link in RuebenJRD's post above:

    "First of all, David Lee is an absolutely awful defender. With Bargnani, we all knew the help side defense was always his worst liability, but he was always able to stay in front of his match-up and guard them straight up. David Lee is a bad help defender, rarely there on time, and can’t guard a single big in the league; poor lateral quicks, and bad court awareness.
    David Lee also has a terrible contract, and with the new collective bargaining agreement plus the salary make-up of this current team with Fields, DeRozan, and Rudy, it would have put this team in a bad spot. Lee roughly has $44 million dollars left for 3 years! Goodness, talk about overpaid."

    http://www.raptorscage.ca/why-the-to...-the-warriors/
    While I'm not doubting that in general, I still don't think Lee's 'bad defense' is nearly as influential Bargnani's bad D. Aside from Bargnani's unwillingness to help, he comes out as a larger liability on/off (+3.9 vs +1.3 for Lee) and has half the defensive win share per/48 of Lee, while Lee played in a much more difficult western conference.

    Lee's defensive winshare per/48 for his career is about 1.5x as good as Bargnani's (even if its still bad).

    I honestly think Bargnani's absolutely porous defense has been widely undervalued in Toronto. Bargs has the potential (there's that word with him again ) to be a better defender, but on the court to date he hasn't been.

  23. #9939
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    Seriously what is Doug Smith's problem

    Only he would have a problem with dealing Bargnani...

    Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m right.

    I don’t think we can say for sure today.

    -Doug Smith

  24. #9940
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    3 draft picks along with Novak? are you sure?

    Glen Grunwald looks foolish but it's not really so. Yes Raptors get the better of the deal but it should be kept in mind that the deal is essentially Bargnani for Novak and 3 picks which includes a 1st rounder.

    Although part of the deal, Camby's possible refusal to come here must have been discussed, hence the picks(compensation). Secondly, it seems like there were other suitors too and the Knicks had to offer something to beat other teams.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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