View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8481
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    What he isn't:

    1. Franchise player
    2. No. 1 option
    3. #1 overall draft pick (and fans need to let that go)



    What he is:

    1. Difficult to defend
    2. Scoring option from anywhere on the Court
    3. A floor spreader who can score in the paint (unlike Ilyasova)
    4. Someone who wants to play in Canada
    5. Good post defender
    6. Ideal off the Bench, with potential to rank amongst top 6th man types



    Why reassess him?

    1. The Rudy Gay factor is changing the dynamics of this team
    2. Opponent focus & Double coverage will be less
    3. Could make the Secondary a potent Bench


    .
    +1 Agreed Im still saying move him but if there is nothing worthwhile might as well hold onto him a little longer and him playing this role as 6th man will only make his value increase as he will be way more effecient in that role look more attractive to potential suiters. Im not a big fan of the Ilyasova trade Bargs could net the team a whole lot more imo. The deadline is in a week and some days he currently has the flu his value is fluctuating like crazy between meh and ok trade him when value is higher, worked wonders for Ed and Calderon.

  2. #8482
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Milwaukee doesn't really need to blow it up either. They have a lot of expiring contracts and so next year is a 'blow it up' year anyway. They still need to figure out what they want to do with Jennings and Ellis would be a very big asset as well.

    Ilyasova is signed to a good deal and has a long term contract which is enticing for an unfriendly free agent destination. I don't see Milwaukee trading him for Bargnani either. Bryan could be jonesing for him but it will probably be a few years before he gets him.

    Before yesterday I would have said no to Ilyasova but looking at his stats, I could see why he'd be a good pickup. I would still prefer Gasol over him though and that's a far likely scenario.

  3. #8483
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    At the expense of playoff revenue? Milwaukee doesn't gain anything from blowing it up now as opposed to this summer. But they lose a lot of revenue generated by a playoff race.
    I agree. Reminds me of the recent Gay trade. I know that Memphis saved money in the deal but I thought they could've waited 'til the end of the season and still got about as much for Gay. The trade might cause them to slip out of the play-offs.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  4. #8484
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    if you realize that your team is going to permanently stuck in the mushy middle, you blow it up sooner rather than later
    I have been on forums for Bucks fans over the last day or so....I see no talk of getting Bargs, but see lots of talk of them wanting to risk making a big move, even if they miss the playoffs. BUCKS FANS HATE ILYASOVA. They think he's not a good enough scorer, or close enough to a star. They DESPERATELY want a big man who can score, and they despise having Ellis on their roster. Some fans are crazy, and think they can trade for Cousins, or Gasol..a legit high scoring big, without gutting the team. Others understand that even if they are willing to gut a team, it's hard to convince a Cousins or Gasol to stay in Milwaukee.

    A team like the Bucks almost only gets their top talent through the draft, and have a hard time attracting more than substandard talent....Anyway, the overwhelming sense I got is that all of their fans want a shakeup because they hate being in that middle part, and they know that other than Jennings they don't have any high level talent players. *keeping in mind they don't see Ellis as apiece of the future.

    Bargnani, though I saw no mention of him, is clearly a talent upgrade...talent was never hs problem. And he would certainly be a better go-to guy up front than anyone they have, including Ilyasova, who's an efficient player, but also not capable of really reaching a higher level in terms of filling that big role of a 2nd or 3rd option. I still don't know if Milwaukee would actually want Bargs, given his contract and rebounding allergies, but in terms of what they may be looking for, he's clearly a more realistic option for them than Gasol or Cousins. I also don't see the Bucks giving up assets for a rental like Smith or Millsap, even though those 2, just like on our own forums here, are popular choices. Frankly, I don't see that they have a lot of options, so who knows, maybe htey'll fall into the Bargnani trap...Maybe if we sweeten the deal by taking back Udoh

    (WHAT?! you say...You''re crazy!!...well, not really. With Ersan, JV and Amir, that's most of the minutes...keep Gray as a matchup big and Acy as a 5th big, Udoh becomes the emergency big, who you pay too much but we can just renounce his right and let him walk...it doesn't affect our flexibility since we only have our exceptions to spend, and since Ilyasova makes less, we can absorb most of his and Udoh's salaries under the amount Bargs would be owed.)

  5. #8485
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    He's better than him if he doesn't have to do too much with it. He's not quite as quick to the basket, and he's not big enough to play in the post as well as Bargs. They can't run plays for Ilyasova where he has the ball in his hands, and as it is now, they have that small backcourt issue. Bargs would make Ellis more expendable, and to get a scoring "downgrade" there as well more acceptable...maybe try to turn it into a 3-team deal with Indy. I don't think they really want to keep Granger. I think they could really use Ellis like a supersub, and it saves Indy a small amount of money. They can keep the lineup that's been working, and keep George at SF. This deal, for example, works....And Milwauke would have a slightly more conventional lineup, because they're clearly not going to be contenders as constructed. We could also throw in AA to the Bucks if they want extra SG insurance with Ellis gone.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl3zt72
    Nothing personal, but you've made few statements here that are just plain bsL.
    1. Ekpe Udoh is actually a quality big that still has huge upside. He just has not been given the opportunity with limited minutes. As a matter of fact, I would trade #7 for him straight up!
    2. "and he's not big enough to play in the post as well as Bargs." since when Bargs plays in the post?? Ersan actually plays well close to the basket on both ends of the floor.
    3. Hypothesis about Indy - just leave it out unless you have any legit references.
    4. Booing Bargs on his first game back - if I was in the crowd, I'd boo him! Damn right I would. The amount of suffering he has caused me over the years...

    Just for the record, I would not do this trade... as much as I dislike #7

  6. #8486
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote vino wrote: View Post
    Nothing personal, but you've made few statements here that are just plain bsL.
    1. Ekpe Udoh is actually a quality big that still has huge upside. He just has not been given the opportunity with limited minutes. As a matter of fact, I would trade #7 for him straight up!
    2. "and he's not big enough to play in the post as well as Bargs." since when Bargs plays in the post?? Ersan actually plays well close to the basket on both ends of the floor.
    3. Hypothesis about Indy - just leave it out unless you have any legit references.
    4. Booing Bargs on his first game back - if I was in the crowd, I'd boo him! Damn right I would. The amount of suffering he has caused me over the years...

    Just for the record, I would not do this trade... as much as I dislike #7
    1. Udho a quality big with upside? Yeah, those 4 pts and 3.5 rbs on 40% shooting are really promising. He has done little more to impress in Milwaukee than he did in GS. He's also making more than 3 million a year because of his rookie scale deal, and he's not even as good as Acy, I would say, though he is bigger, which makes him an ok backup or 3rd string C with Gray behind JV.

    2. Bargs gets some touches almost every game in the post. He is big and uses his size, especially when he has a mismatch. This is something that started way back when Triano was here. Clearly you don't actually pay attention to Raps games when you watch them. Ersan does not have the size, or moves, to really finish a lot in the post...Bargs is a much better player in the paint (where he finishes at a higher %, 46% on 44 attempts to 24% on 34 attempts, according to nba.com's advanced player stats), and Ilyasova's %s and usage are focused under the basket and at the 3pt line because he's a complimentary scorer. This is because Bargs can actually create shots from different spots on teh court.

    In fact, if you look at the breakdown by area on such pages, Bargs is as good or better in terms of %s from everywhere except the above the break 3, and all that with a usg % of about 25%, as compared to Ersan's 19%. Considering the Bucks want a better scorer, and especially that role of a 2nd or 3rd guy to go with Jennings, Bargs clearly has more ability to fill that role.

    3. Hypothesis about Indy. It's a hypothesis, I don't need a source. Have you suggested that the Raps should try any trade? All I did was suggest that since I think it's pretty well known that Granger has been in the rumor mill since the summer, and that with Indy's lineup playing well, it's as good a time as any for them to trade him to address more important issues, like the fact that their backcourt is basically Stephenson, Hill and Augustin...Ellis would be a huge upgrade for them from that perspective. I don't see a problem with showing that such a 3team deal is at least technically possible, which is really all I was doing with the trade machine link.

    4. Booing Bargs....that is classless. What would you be booing him for? YOu think that's going to help your team win? You think that's going to make him want to play better, which is good whether we keep or trade him? How has he caused you suffering? Has his inability to rebound affected your health, your virility, your friendships?
    Boo Bargs if we're losing games and he's playing like crap. He came back and was actually playing well, for Bargs. That is classless, good sir, and I hope one day 20,000 people boo you just for showing up to work.

    oh, some random stats from nba.com....
    http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r
    http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r

  7. #8487
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    4. Booing Bargs....that is classless. What would you be booing him for? YOu think that's going to help your team win? You think that's going to make him want to play better, which is good whether we keep or trade him? How has he caused you suffering? Has his inability to rebound affected your health, your virility, your friendships?
    Boo Bargs if we're losing games and he's playing like crap. He came back and was actually playing well, for Bargs. That is classless, good sir, and I hope one day 20,000 people boo you just for showing up to work.
    Just to play devil's advocate, why is it OK to boo a player if he's playing badly? Like you mentioned, it doesn't help the team win, and doesn't make him want to play better.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  8. #8488
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Just to play devil's advocate, why is it OK to boo a player if he's playing badly? Like you mentioned, it doesn't help the team win, and doesn't make him want to play better.
    I may have misinterpreted, but I saw it more as you should never boo a player on your own team, but if you're going to atleast have a reason to do it(ie. playing like shit)

  9. #8489
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Just to play devil's advocate, why is it OK to boo a player if he's playing badly? Like you mentioned, it doesn't help the team win, and doesn't make him want to play better.
    WEll, I assume if you're going to a game, you want to see the team win. It is more acceptable to boo a player, in my mind, if that guy is really bringing garbage, and it's ok to boo anyone on the team if the whole team is playing like that....This is still something I would probably only expect in the last minute or two of a bad game in that sense. In general, I think that there is no really good reason to boo and it's not something I do, but really, like I said, if you watch your team/player put up an awful game, especially if it's not the first in recent memory, I would fully expect some boos at the end of that game.
    But for Bargs, it was just angry booing before he had even done anything. Really, like I said, he got booed basically for showing up tp work...Like, would those fans rather he had stayed injured and not had a solid game for us that night?
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 04:06 PM.

  10. #8490
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    I may have misinterpreted, but I saw it more as you should never boo a player on your own team, but if you're going to atleast have a reason to do it(ie. playing like shit)
    That's just it though....the fans who booed Bargnani DID have a reason. That is, the less-than-stellar play he's graced us with over the past 7 years.

    I'm just curious as to why some people think it's justified to boo Bargnani if he lacks effort one night, but not if he lacks effort for his entire career.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  11. #8491
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    That's just it though....the fans who booed Bargnani DID have a reason. That is, the less-than-stellar play he's graced us with over the past 7 years.

    I'm just curious as to why some people think it's justified to boo Bargnani if he lacks effort one night, but not if he lacks effort for his entire career.
    Again, I point to the booing just for showing up to work. That night Bargs played well and helped his team. I'm not saying one night makes up for 7 years. But you're going to one game where he actually helped the team...how is it ok to boo someone for that?

  12. #8492
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Again, I point to the booing just for showing up to work. That night Bargs played well and helped his team. I'm not saying one night makes up for 7 years. But you're going to one game where he actually helped the team...how is it ok to boo someone for that?
    But wouldn't you agree that the timeframe is completely subjective? You evaluate performances from one game to the next. Maybe the fans booing that night were evaluating his entire career to date. Who's to say one's right and one's wrong?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #8493
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    While reading the entire first page... I was amused to an absurd degree. I can't believe so many people would shoot down Bargnani for Ilyasova straight up so emphatically. A lot of reversals after the first page, but wow. Like Matt52 said, there is virtually literally nothing about Ilyasova that isn't better than Bargnani. Younger, better from range, gets paid less in the four years of his contract (minus team option year) than Bargnani gets paid in three, better shot selection, much better rebounder, etc. Ridiculous.

  14. #8494
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    But wouldn't you agree that the timeframe is completely subjective? You evaluate performances from one game to the next. Maybe the fans booing that night were evaluating his entire career to date. Who's to say one's right and one's wrong?
    I think it's a mixture of a lack of logic, and just being way too negative....Booing Bargnani early in the game can't possibly do any good. And really does it erase the last 7 years? Such an attitude would make you think that the fans would rather him not play at all, which is probably a fair guess....but then, like I said earlier, would they rather he didn't and it cost us the game?

    That's why it makes no sense to me to boo someone at the game for his past 7 years of performance. It would seem to imply that such fans desired a sort of negative experience at the game...that they would be happier booing Bargs to a loss as if it's some sort of vindication.....That they would rather see the team win wihtout him than with him, when really why should it matter if the team is winning?

    All that said, you are right and it's subjective, but I just really don't understand the side of the argument for why you would do such a thing....if you hate that player and don't want to cheer for the team with him on it..don't go to the game

  15. #8495
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Guys, there's an entire thread dedicated to the question of "to boo, or not to boo" with regards to Bargnani. Please keep this thread on topic - Ilyasova rumor.

  16. #8496
    Raptors Republic Rookie OldSchool's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I think we're all being a tad sensitive. Fans have booed teams, players, coaches (in any sport) since the beginning of time. Nothing new here. Whether Bargnani, as a person, genuinely deserved it or not is completely irrelevant. The ACC will reign down boos at some point in the future too....it's an inevitability.

    IMO, I'm just glad the fan base is passionate enough to react one way or the other. I'd be much more disappointed if the crowd showed complete disinterest...like they do in Philips Arena.
    You're right. I guess it does come off as a bit sensitive. To tell you the truth, although I don't approve of all the booing, Im really not that phased by it all. What frustrates me is how people feel that just because they purchased a ticket they think that gives them the green light to do whatever the hell they want without care of how it effects everyone else. Ill stand up to that ugliness everytime.

    You're also right about the passion. Theres always gonna be knuckleheads out there and there'll be more booing for sure but at least we got passion.

    To tell you the truth, Ive always been proud of our fan base. Even through all the crappy seasons we've always had top level attendance, some of the loudest fans and at least all the booing shows great passion aswell.

    - Overall, TORONTO HAS THE BEST FANS -

  17. #8497
    Raptors Republic Rookie OldSchool's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    **Slow clap**

    (Note that I did remove the part about slapping people. No clap for that part. I don't condone violence.)
    lol "slapping fools" is probably a bit too far

  18. #8498
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Well, I'm going to recap some reasons why I think getting Bargs could end up working for Milwaukee....

    -He definitely mixes it up more as a scorer, and can carry a higher usg% because of that. Ilyasova, much like Amir and other role players, is partly so efficient from knowing when to limit himself. You can't put the ball in his hands and expect a lot to happen. Bargs is less efficient, but certainly more capable of being a 2nd or 3rd option(or probably 4th). They need someone who can hit shots in the post/paint and create those for himself. Bargs certainly has at least a few moves where he finishes in that low post area or heart of the paint. He's a worse 3pt shooter than Ilyasova, but if he's also going to score for them in other ways, I think they might take that. I also feel like part of Bargs' dropoff in that 3% is a mix of injuries, and utilization by Casey...I feel like he shoots a lot more 3s in bad situations (like in isolation) instead of open 3s in rhythm where he thrives, but I could be wrong, I don't have access to any advanced stats like that (would synergy have that???)

    -Ilyasova can't play C defensively. Yes Bargs is soft on the boards, but we all see his size, and that as a one on one defender, he's actually probably our best all-around big guarding the ball. Once that ball is into the post(low or high), Bargs is often the best at either holding his ground, or backing off and making himself big so it's hard to drive by him. Is Amir a better overall team defender? Yes, of course. Hands down. It's not even close. And he's better usually at fighting off the ball. But for Milwaukee, they're grooming Sanders and Henson as help defenders. What they desperately lack, and I noticed this a bit on their forums, is a F/C who can score and defend both big positions. I saw a lot of Cousins, and names like Gasol, Jefferson...even before you might see names Raps fans are big on, like Smith and Millsap. Also, yes Ilyasova is a better rebounder, but stats-wise and with their roster, they might be ok losing 1-2 rebounds for Bargs' points if they think they'll make it up as Sanders and Henson develop, which is entirely possible.

    -Finances....the initial reason I suggested Udoh, is that if they have Sanders, Henson and whoever they trade for, Udoh gets no real burn anyway. You figure they are going to want a vet, or just keep Gooden...Mbah a Moute plays as a 3/4 as well, so they're not small. THey could easily have 4-5 bigs discounting Udoh. Milwaukee is a smaller market. They struggle to attract big names/contracts...They may have to settle for someone like Bargs, and we can sweeten the deal by taking back Udoh, who doesn't figure to be in their long term plans, and eats up capspace + a roster spot next year. We can offer Udoh a legit chance at least as the 4th big if he can outplay Gray or Acy, and we can also absorb his money fairly easily and renounce his rights after next year if we want instead of giving him a qualifying offer. So the deal would not only save Milwaukee the extra year (and not much, less than a million) on Ilyasova, plus another 4.5 million on Udoh next year. That would save them some roster space, about 5-6 million dollars, and shorten their commitments.

    -Also, ignoring any hypotheses since apparently that bugged someone, fans definitely want Ellis gone. Apart from the forums, below's a link to an article of which players their truehoop network site, Bucksketball, seems to suggest that Dalembert(expiring), Udrih(expiring), Ilyasova, Ellis(possibly opting out), and Jennings are most likely to be traded judging by other teams wanting them, in that order, which is associated to some question in a Chad Ford chat about which Bucks are available...(Chad Ford, take that as you like) You never know when a 3 team deal might help as it clearly made a difference in the Gay trade, and it seems there's at least a possibility they have some different pieces moving.

    http://www.bucksketball.com/2013/02/...lwaukee-bucks/
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Feb 12th, 2013 at 05:57 PM.

  19. #8499
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    • Toronto general manager Bryan Colangelo, to the surprise of no one, is still more than willing to trade Raptors center Andrea Bargnani. But according to a person with knowledge of the situation, he continues to spark very little, if any, interest. The person spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the private nature of the talks.

    The No. 1 pick of the 2006 draft is owed $10.7 million next season and $11.5 million in 2014-15 (so long as he doesn't use his early termination option). Bargani, who tore a ligament in his right elbow on Dec. 10 and returned on Feb. 6, has seen serious declines in his production from last season to this one.

    Despite his playing time being almost identical (33.3 minutes per game compared to 32.2), his scoring (19.5 points per game to 15.8), shooting percentage (43.2% to 41%), and rebounding (5.5 to 4.2) are down. The talks between Toronto and Chicago involving forward Carlos Boozer are not seen

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...-to-z/1913745/

    Noooooooooooooooooooo.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #8500
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    -He definitely mixes it up more as a scorer, and can carry a higher usg% because of that. Ilyasova, much like Amir and other role players, is partly so efficient from knowing when to limit himself. You can't put the ball in his hands and expect a lot to happen. Bargs is less efficient, but certainly more capable of being a 2nd or 3rd option(or probably 4th). They need someone who can hit shots in the post/paint and create those for himself. Bargs certainly has at least a few moves where he finishes in that low post area or heart of the paint. He's a worse 3pt shooter than Ilyasova, but if he's also going to score for them in other ways, I think they might take that. I also feel like part of Bargs' dropoff in that 3% is a mix of injuries, and utilization by Casey...I feel like he shoots a lot more 3s in bad situations (like in isolation) instead of open 3s in rhythm where he thrives, but I could be wrong, I don't have access to any advanced stats like that (would synergy have that???)
    Until this season, Bargnani has always been assisted on 60%+ of his makes at the rim. Also, 60+% of his shots come from 16 feet and out. Ilyasova consistently has a usg% of 20; he takes a fifth of the shots when he's on the floor. He may not be ball dominant like Bargnani, but he's no corner three specialist.

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    -Ilyasova can't play C defensively. Yes Bargs is soft on the boards, but we all see his size, and that as a one on one defender, he's actually probably our best all-around big guarding the ball. Once that ball is into the post(low or high), Bargs is often the best at either holding his ground, or backing off and making himself big so it's hard to drive by him. Is Amir a better overall team defender? Yes, of course. Hands down. It's not even close. And he's better usually at fighting off the ball. But for Milwaukee, they're grooming Sanders and Henson as help defenders. What they desperately lack, and I noticed this a bit on their forums, is a F/C who can score and defend both big positions. I saw a lot of Cousins, and names like Gasol, Jefferson...even before you might see names Raps fans are big on, like Smith and Millsap. Also, yes Ilyasova is a better rebounder, but stats-wise and with their roster, they might be ok losing 1-2 rebounds for Bargs' points if they think they'll make it up as Sanders and Henson develop, which is entirely possible.
    Bargnani has only had a double digit rebounding rate THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. To put in perspective the difference between the two in terms of rebounding, Bargnani's DEFENSIVE rebounding rate has only been higher than Ilyasova's TOTAL rebounding rate in the same season... again... THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. In a down year for Ilyasova, he's still bringing in more rebounds a game than Bargnani has ever averaged in a season.

    Also, why would Ilyasova get penalized for not being able to guard the post when he's a 4? I would also certainly not call Bargnani a better defender than any big in the league except when he doesn't have to move. Down in the post? Sure. In the high post? No thanks. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously, but the point still stands. I get that you're trying to rationalize it from Milwaukee's point of view, but yeah.

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