we cheer for the team, not just one player.
i seriously cant fathom how one can despise one player on his home team, yet sleep at night saying he's a fan of the team. coz isnt that player a part of the team? oh well. cant please everybody. its one thing to go "man he sucked tonight" and go "that was awesome shooting tonite" the next. but to rant all season long how bad one player is is beyond obsession.
However, I also agree with Heinz stellar post - if he is back I will cheer, I always do. I'm a Raps fan 1st and foremost, players come second. Anything that makes the team better, I'm all for it. I would be super pissed though if he started to grab 8-9rebs a game, however, after 5 years of waiting for this to happen I do not believe that outcome to be possible.
I'm Bargnani hater.I admit he can score...and maybe he is good.Probably on a different team he would be even greater.But I don't like him.There is something wrong with so mobile and perimeter oriented and skilled center.In fact I have always wondered WHY they play him at center when he isn't?He has some advantage if covered by opposing centers but that isn't enough to put him at C.For me it is like to put James Johnson at pg and play him with derozan,weems,amir and davis...or something like that.I think you'd get my point.And after all the criticism he toke this season I am convinced now that it is better for him and for the team, to go elsewhere.And in a way even if we get scrubs for him they might better with the rest of the young guys on the team.As we witnessed this season he DOESN'T fit well with the players we have.A few good games doesn't excuse a season of loses.
Time to go Bargnani.
With the possibility of trading him, I was 50-50 a while ago, then 70-30, now 99-1.
Him at C is a joke. Him at PF may work - why not try, everything else has been tried. Him at PF over ED longterm is a ridiculous innuendo.
I hope no rival execs read this forum. A rugged C who has not been given much of a chance (think Zaza Pachulia), a prospect (think Jordan Crawford from ATL to WSH), and a high draft pick (SAC, MIN, NJ/UTA) would be great returns for Bargnani.
Is it really a major problem? How many games have we lost as result of Andrea’s defense? All your point are fine but until you prove that there is a direct correlation between Andrea defending and the raptors loosing as far as I am concerned his offensive production far outweighs his defensive deficiencies. You can make the claim that because Amir only averages 8 points a game this lack of offensive production cost us much more victories than Andrea’s lack of defensive instincts did.While I'm no expert, I have a lot of confidence in my basketball knowledge, which has come through decades of playing, studying and some coaching. What I see when I watch Bargnani is an extremely poor help defender and below average man defender. His biggest problem is lack of defensive instincts. And that is a major, major problem because defensive is played instinctively. If you haven't got good defensive instincts by the time you're 25, you ain't getting them.
To Quote the Great Allen Iverson Practise? Who needs Practise!... This summer play pickup games with 8th graders for all I care go to Italian National team and focus on defense and effort.It's great if Bargnani wants to work on defense, but how exactly does he do that? You learn defense by playing, and he's done plenty of that.
Oh so it’s that simple, no wonder Demar can consistently hit a jumper now. Oh wait but what about Sonny? Since they both learned the easiest skill they should be equally efficient according to your logic. And how come Andrea who has a much better offensive game than Amir is shooting a much lower percentage? Your example is very random. Bruce Bowen was probably left wide open which would explain his 3 point shooting percentage. The entire league SHOULD be able to hit an open jumper consistently but IMO only about 50% can. For example Amir has proved to be able to knock down an open jumper, however, this not necessarily a skill merely a byproduct of being left open. The reason Amir has a more efficienct shooting percentage than Andrea is because he is GUARDED on the majority of his shots and not because Amir is more skilled offensively. A skill is to scorer while being defended. In hockey is you score into an open net they still count the goal but the skill is hardly evident.And was there evidence to suggest Amir could hit an open jumper? Sure. This is a quote from DraftExpress when he was drafted...
Offensively, he brings all the budding skills necessary for the “new age” power forward. Although the form on Johnson’s shot is poor, he still manages to consistently knock down jumpers all the way out to the NBA 3 point line.
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...#ixzz1JWhYTjgZ
http://www.draftexpress.com A jumper is one of the easiest skills to learn. Loads of guys have come into the league with no outside shot and become above average shooters. All it takes is hard work and repetition. Bruce Bowen came into the NBA with a horrible jumper and ended up leading the league in 3 point shooting one year.
Good at least we agree on something.And the type of development that we've seen from DeMar is the type of development that you'd hope to see in any 21 year old second year lottery pick. Especially one that is as renowned a hard worker as he is.
As I mentioned before every player develops at their own pace. It’s also proven that it takes foreign players longer to adjust to the NBA for obvious reasons. And Andrea is still young.I agree that stranger things have happened than Bargnani suddenly "getting it" defensively, but that's no way to approach the development of a player. You don't draft Ed Davis hoping he'll one day lead the league in scoring. Will I feel foolish if Bargnani suddenly becomes a defensive beast? No, why? I'll argue till I'm blue in the face if someone says that Ed Davis will become a 30 ppg scorer, but if he does, I'd be thrilled. I just think the chance of it happening are incredibly unlikely.
Believe me if ED averaged 21.4 points we wouldn’t hear the end of it. You would be chalking him up for perennial All-Star games.
Each one of your Bargnani posts is a critical one so don’t try calling me out now that’s baloney. I gave you an example obviously 25 and 10 is Howard territory but you just acknowledge you hold him to unfair standards and you would only stop critsizing him if he exceeded otherworldly expectations. For example why don’t we all set Amir up for failure as well lets set the bar at 20+ well never criticize him if he reaches this goal, but anything lower trade the bum.When Bargnani was drafted, I figured his ceiling was a 25 ppg scorer who was a below average rebounder and defender. Seems I've been right so far.
If Bargnani suddenly became a 25-10 player while playing good defense, why on earth would I continue to criticize him? You make it sound as if I'm criticizing him because I don't like him as a person. I have absolutely no feelings about him personally. I criticize him because he's a big man who is a poor rebounder and defender. If he suddenly became a good rebounder and defender, then why exactly would I continue to criticize him? I don't understand this comment.
I wouldn’t feel foolish if he averaged 8 and 4 because then I can start reverting to the hustle heart effort tactics. They seem to be box score flavor of the year.Besides, if Bargnani DOESN'T become a good defensive player or rebounder, would YOU feel foolish?
Don’t bring up comments about me being someone’s gf and expect something kind in return.What exactly is this crack about? What does my wife have to do with this? She has absolutely no idea who Bargnani is and doesn't even watch basketball. It's these types of comments that make you look really bad, by the way. So I'd suggest you cut that sort of juvenile crap out.
Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Thu Apr 14th, 2011 at 05:01 PM.
The thing with this statement above, is that James Johnson actually has the Tools and Skillset to play the PG, or at least the Point Forward ala Hedo in Orlando. He is capable of bringing the ball up the floor, a very good passer, excellent handle, decent quicks, very smart.
Bargnani on the other hand, actually does NOT have ANY of the Tools and Skillset a capable Center would possess. Besides the fact that he is tall, and can Score. (Though to be honest, Scoring the ball is not something I consider one of the Tools required to play C.)
So though I do agree with what your saying, I disagree with your metaphor.
If you were to say "playing Bargnani at Center is like playing Bargnani at Point Guard" then I would agree. Because he is equally qualified to play both.
Didn't even read this before posting the above! hahah
Last edited by Joey; Thu Apr 14th, 2011 at 05:08 PM.
"That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson
On a second thought you are right.It wasn't the best metaphor although and yes James Johnson even plays PG on offense.My point really was that playing Bargnani as center provides some mismatch opportunities but I don't think those opportunities are enough to play him at center.It is good while Johnson orchestrates the offense both Bayless and Calderon play off the ball and most times good things happen when J.J. does that.But that is only on offence.I haven't seen Bayless guard opposing SF when man to man,or Calderon.Unlike Bargnani very often been after a switch or not is guarding good big guys out there who score at will on him.Not to mention his help defense which is topic well covered around here.
I am getting off topic.Trade with Minny looks great on paper.I'd like if it happens.or any of the other fantasy trade proposals around.So wherever he goes I have a feeling it would be better for all sides involved in the trade.
With Eddy D sounding like he's bulking up to play center next season I think that trade I mentioned on the trade board involving a certain someone the Pacers were after at the deadline makes a lot of sense. Then they can safely use thier pick on Williams or Kanter if Irving is off the board. Suddenly they maintain their scoring punch and double their toughness in the paint at all times.
its just not possible. im dead serious. try to love each of those players as an nba player thats NOT a sonic.
payton as a laker? ya right. those years are dead to me.
kemp as a cav? same thing.
my teams are my teams, regardless of who's on them. if they wear the colours i support, i support them.
some may call that blind fanaticism.
yup, they're probably right. and it's awesome.
hmm *looks at team record*Is it really a major problem? How many games have we lost as result of Andrea’s defense? All your point are fine but until you prove that there is a direct correlation between Andrea defending and the raptors loosing as far as I am concerned his offensive production far outweighs his defensive deficiencies. You can make the claim that because Amir only averages 8 points a game this lack of offensive production cost us much more victories than Andrea’s lack of defensive instincts did.
ed davis would probably put up decent rebounding numbers, shoot at a higher percentage, and play or at least try to play defense atop of that offensive production. for arguments sake if your trying to say he puts up the same stats then i would see him in the same light as bargnaniBelieve me if ED averaged 21.4 points we wouldn’t hear the end of it. You would be chalking him up for perennial All-Star games.
I like how all the Bargs haters are coming out the woodworks, just goes to show that if he doesn't shape up hes getting shipped out ASAP, and his time has ran up.
As for how many games the Raptors lost because of Bargnani's defense, I don't know. How many games did they win because of his offense? Again, I don't know. They lost a hell of a lot of games and didn't win very many games, so either way it doesn't really work much in Bargnani's favour.
The fact is, though, that good defense from your team's front court is incredibly important if you want to win on a consistent basis. And Bargnani is a very poor defender. In the playoffs, any team where Bargnani is playing a large roll will have a lot of trouble winning because teams exploit weaknesses like this.
And just so you know, it's `lose', not `loose'. You lose a game. You don't loose a game.
You mentioned that Amir didn't show the ability to hit an open jumper. I showed that not only did he show that ability, but it's an ability that is easily learned. You're the one that brought it up, not me. I just showed you that learning how to hit and open jumper and learning how to play good defense are not at all similar.
There are currently 7 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 7 guests)