View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #9541
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Back to Bargnani.... imagine a Bargnani thread getting derailed!

    John Wall do we have a 4-man for you!
    Haha...Or you know, they just draft Bennett. If they can get Bennett to play D I can see him being a much better player than Bargnani, even in those 13 games.

  2. #9542
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    1. Why are you putting words in my mouth? I SEE where the value is... I also SEE an incredibly mediocre team. Want to get better, trade from STRENGTH. Want to get worse/ stay on the mediocrity treadmill keep doing these stupid, rash, quick fix trades.

    2. The question needs to be not what is DD's value now, but rather can he increase his value? I believe he can. Though his FG% is lower than it should be 2 things pop out for me: How often he gets to the line, and where he gets his shots from. Using simple logic here, if Demar simply changes where he shoots from (takes more shots from higher % regions) he will improve. That might be incremental, but starting SGs are becoming a scarcity, and quite frankly 9.5 Mill isn't a lot for a scarce commodity.

    3.Can the Raps do better? Sure, but I think you need to watch more NCAA/Euroleague before you talk about prospects. This year was bad. SO BAD, especially at the wing positions. Don't be surprised if a lot of bigs move up the board for the simple reason that they have size, and not potential, or talent. The spin scouts are putting on the draft now is comical. IF there's so much talent then why is a kid who played 2nd Div. in Greece who is YEARS from being ready being touted as a mid first round pick?

    IF your ludicrous trade worked and the Raps-- with a scouting staff that everyone on this board makes fun of-- picks a gem you're still talking about a 2-3 year wait for that player to be where Demar is now. This is the wrong draft year for that thinking.

    4. Personally I don't see trading Demar, but that doesn't mean I would be upset if he was moved. But IF he was moved I would rather the Raps already have assets. Trading Demar for a quick fix, or from such a pathetic state will only lead to getting garbage in return. Think about it, what gets you more? Demar and filler, or adding Demar to a Barganani trade? Seriously.

    Also, people spotted the issues with Bargnani EARLY! A lot of people. It was obvious. He played lackadaisical for Toronto, and then would play just as nonchalantly for Italy... Even Shaq spotted it, telling Italians that Gallinari was better. Friggin Shaq! (When Bellinelli left I told my best friend that we let the wrong Italian go-- that was a long time ago.) We wondered why Colangelo overpaid for him, complained every year except 2011-2012 when we backed off and then were finally accepted as being correct this past season.

    Demar is a different beast. Is he worth the contract? Time will tell, but no one doubts that he will at least try to play up to it. That's a start, and as a fan who believes that teams are built from their basketball philosophy out that's what I want incoming players to see. If Toronto gets a reputation for paying above market for players that bust their tail, that if you don't work the fans will boo you, but if you put in effort you'll be cheered I would be cool with that. That's much better than rewarding laziness (Bargs, "Ball!"), trading hard workers (ED, Jose), stupidly high player turnover every year, and firing your best head coach.

    That's the kind of behavior that led to good free agents not coming to Toronto. Want it to continue? Trade a respected player for a draft pick in a crappy draft, and see what kind of "player" wants to come fill that salary cap space.
    **I am sorry for putting words in your mouth but you said DD for a pick which implied to me that none of the other benefits were recognized or realized**

    1. Stupid, rash, quick fix? I don't think taking on 2 draft picks and $20M in expiring contracts is rash or quick. It is actually all about long term growth and flexibility. Now stupid is another matter.

    2. If Bargnani could just get 8 rebs per game.... no, 7 rebs per game.... no wait, 6 rebs per game.... 5? Have you considered what happens if DD decreases his value?

    3. Because he is an athletic freak who will not be 19 until December.

    Adetokunbo stands out first and foremost thanks to the tremendous physical profile he brings to the table, reminding somewhat of a Nicolas Batum or Thabo Sefolosha on first glance. He has great size at 6-9, 196 pounds, to go along with a developed upper body and an overall terrific frame that should fill out considerably in time. His wingspan has reportedly been measured at 7-3, but perhaps most interesting is the size of his hands, as he's able to palm the ball like a grapefruit which helps him out considerably as a passer, ball-handler and finisher.

    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz2V5bAL84p
    http://www.draftexpress.com
    What he reminds me of though is Kawhi Leonard:

    The top ranked wing on our Big Board, Kawhi Leonard's stock is based primarily on his physical attributes, defensive abilities, and upside, so it's not a huge surprise that he doesn't fare very well from a purely statistical standpoint. His profile strongly indicates that he's destined to play a complimentary role in the NBA, at least in his first few seasons.

    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz2V5bZn4tg
    http://www.draftexpress.com
    One of the big draws to Leonard was his hands - they are massive.

    The biggest story out of the 2011 edition of the combine might be San Diego State forward Kawhi Leonard, who measured just 6'6 in socks, but had a great 7'3 wingspan and truly huge hands (9.8 inches long, 11.3 inches wide). No player at the combine had hands longer than Leonard; only center Greg Smith's hands were wider.

    In basketball, hand size is a big indicator of success in rebounding, and plays a role in defense and ball-handling as well.

    Leonard's biggest challenge in the workout season will be showing he has the skill level necessary to play small forward at the NBA level. But his measurements should help his reputation as a physical defender, something that he may have trouble getting across in the workout setting.

    http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/2...-kawhi-leonard
    Crazy thing is Adetokunbo makes Leonard look like girly hands:



    4. I'm not sure what fetches more for DD. Sadly here is what many people outside of Toronto probably know:

    Really, though, when you are talking about Toronto’s wings what you are really talking about is Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan. They eat up 71% of the teams minutes on the wings, eat up 38.2% of the team’s shot attempts per game and together eat up half of the team’s salary cap. Both are high-volume (6th and 10th in FGA per game for swingmen), low-efficiency (120th and 93rd in TS% for swingmen) scorers and neither one is particularly adept at creating good shots for themselves or others. It is very hard to imagine this team succeeding in the long run with these two teamed up on the wings which makes it hard to envision Ujiri maintaining this pairing for any notable length of time.

    If the two are to be split up, it makes the most sense to these eyes to keep Gay and move DeRozan along.
    Gay is a superior defender to DeRozan, he has shown in the past an ability to hit threes and his contract is half as long as DeRozan’s is, ending in the summer of 2015. Plus, because DeRozan is younger and makes less money per year, he would presumably be the easier of the two to move.

    One of the big reasons to push for a split, though, isn’t about money or efficiency, it’s about shot allocation. Going into next season the team has to find far more shots for Jonas Valanciunas (7.3 FGA per game after the Gay trade) and probably should find more shots for Kyle Lowry (8.4 FGA per game post trade). If you take shot attempts away from DeRozan he won’t give you much in the other areas of the game. Better to explore the market for his services, especially in a summer when so many teams have money to spend on a weak free agent class, than to retain him and simply reduce his role in the structure of the offense. An offense centered around Valanciunas-Gay-Lowry could be potent if balanced right, especially if the team could stick a high-percentage three-point shooter into the starting shooting guard spot. Team them with the ever-improving Amir Johnson and a bench that has actual NBA talent on it and Ujiri may just have the beginnings of an interesting ball club.

    http://threeinthekey.ca/where-to-fir...st-priorities/
    Timmy C nails it.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #9543
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You know what the similarity is though? Inconsistent results.
    Yeah, you kinda did say it, right there ^. It's not that similar. DD is Iron Man compared to Andrea. But, whatever. I'm continuously getting into the same argument with the same dudes so fuck it. This is one subject we'll never come to an agreement on.

    Fuckin everybody wanting to shop all our good players while we got like, eight guys who do absolutely nothing for this team. But nope, apparently our starting line-up is the problem.

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  5. #9544
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    IMO he's useless AND more importantly OVERPAID....He can't score and he can't shut anyone down. OH Wow...he can move without the ball??? Is it really hard to find someone cheaper who can move without the ball?? Dude isnt even a reliable finisher around the rim....doesnt get to the free throw line and doesnt shoot a good percentage at the line. Fields was a MISTAKE signing. We tried to get Nash and it blew up in our face!

    Let's be honest about that!! Fields, Bargnani and Kleiza should be the first players to go.
    Fields is much better than you give him credit for. I'm so glad you're not a talent evaluator for this team, we'd be doomed.

  6. #9545
    Raptors Republic Rookie Checkines's Avatar
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    I could honestly see a team like the clippers having an interest in Bargnani..Although having a volume shooter coming off the bench already in crawford probably would derail that...I honestly can't see that many moves being done this summer. I feel we will roll with the same starting 5 and this off-season will be to shed dead weight in kleiza and bargs and acquiring 2nd pg.

    On a side note I think Fields would be such a strong compliment to the OKC line-up doing all the little things for them.

  7. #9546
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Yeah, you kinda did say it, right there ^. It's not that similar. DD is Iron Man compared to Andrea. But, whatever. I'm continuously getting into the same argument with the same dudes so fuck it. This is one subject we'll never come to an agreement on.

    Fuckin everybody wanting to shop all our good players while we got like, eight guys who do absolutely nothing for this team. But nope, apparently our starting line-up is the problem.
    I think that is the heart of the matter right there.

    I don't think myself, or the other dudes, think an inefficient volume scorer is what makes one a 'good' player.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #9547
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    DeRozan no doubt gets a lot of opportunties because of who he plays for. He might not be third guy off the bench for Miami...

  9. #9548
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    DeRozan no doubt gets a lot of opportunties because of who he plays for. He might not be third guy off the bench for Miami...
    Now that's a bit of a stretch. Look at the Heat bench...apart from Birdman none of them have been helpful in the slightest.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  10. #9549
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    They don't post volume but neither would DeRozan if he were playing on team like that. That's the point.

    And even if he's second off the bench, the point is still made.

  11. #9550
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    **I am sorry for putting words in your mouth but you said DD for a pick which implied to me that none of the other benefits were recognized or realized**

    1. Stupid, rash, quick fix? I don't think taking on 2 draft picks and $20M in expiring contracts is rash or quick. It is actually all about long term growth and flexibility. Now stupid is another matter.

    2. If Bargnani could just get 8 rebs per game.... no, 7 rebs per game.... no wait, 6 rebs per game.... 5? Have you considered what happens if DD decreases his value?

    3. Because he is an athletic freak who will not be 19 until December.

    What he reminds me of though is Kawhi Leonard:

    One of the big draws to Leonard was his hands - they are massive.

    Crazy thing is Adetokunbo makes Leonard look like girly hands:



    4. I'm not sure what fetches more for DD. Sadly here is what many people outside of Toronto probably know:

    Timmy C nails it.
    1. I'm not saying your suggestion is stupid, I'm saying the past regime was INCREDIBLY stupid, and the perception around the league of what I consider a rash move would pile on the negative rep of the team.

    2. Yeah. I know. But that's every investment ever made. I have to look at trends. DD is young, hasn't broken down, is a gym rat, and appears to have good people around him. I think that's a fair gamble to take. More so than gambling on someone called "an enigma."

    3. Hmmm... Yeah his ceiling is silly high. The difference is that Kawhi studied under one of the best NCAA coaches in the game at SDSU (Coach Fisher), and owned his conference for two years. He was NBA ready, just needed some polish. This kid won't get that level of coaching until his little brother and him get to their ACB team. That's a 2nd round gamble most years, not a guaranteed contract.

    4. Ok, so Gay, and DD don't fit. I don't agree, but that's definitely a logical conclusion. I don't see how that impacts Demar's value separate to Bargnani. I'm saying if you feel you must trade Demar you'll get more for him alone than you will get for him with Andrea.

    To that end, sell low with Andrea, get what you can because adding "sweetener" to any trades involving him will only dampen the value of the players added. Personally, I want young, hungry, hardworking and cheap end of bench guys for Bargs. But you need a strong scouting staff to identify those kind of players.

  12. #9551
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Fields is much better than you give him credit for. I'm so glad you're not a talent evaluator for this team, we'd be doomed.
    Likewise my fellow poster......you can Go back to his rookie year and make all the excuses you want....i'll continue in the here and now and move onto the future......its no secret Fields is overpaid. What i don't understand is this:

    The same people always talking about trading Derozan are the same people defending Fields......LOL

    So we get better by keeping useless players and getting rid of our better players????? Did you guys go to the Bryan Collangelo school of team building??? Obviously i dont agree with your talent evaluation abilities!

    I would've NEVER offered Fields a contract.....some of you still seem to be high on the guy.....wow

  13. #9552
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Likewise my fellow poster......you can Go back to his rookie year and make all the excuses you want....i'll continue in the here and now and move onto the future......its no secret Fields is overpaid. What i don't understand is this:

    The same people always talking about trading Derozan are the same people defending Fields......LOL

    So we get better by keeping useless players and getting rid of our better players????? Did you guys go to the Bryan Collangelo school of team building??? Obviously i dont agree with your talent evaluation abilities!

    I would've NEVER offered Fields a contract.....some of you still seem to be high on the guy.....wow
    Well they wanted a 40 year old PG for PR purposes and needed to sign Landry to block a competitor. Forget about wins!
    Woohoo! Seriously, I like LF but not at his contract. Nothing wrong with offering him a contract, but they overpaid for the dumbest reason ever (if basketball is about wins). Seriously, it's the Knicks. When was the last time they kept a younger player? Could have gotten him for a lot less. Thanks to his undisclosed injuries (What's up with the Knick medical staff? Pretty sure this a trend.) he has a hell of a lot less chance of being worth the contract he received than Demar.

    And that's the closest I can get to defending LF...hot wife, like the PSP ads in a weird way...That's about it.

    Special1, were you here long enough to remember when the majority was on the pro-Bargnani's side? This isn't the same. DD is all sidekick and no star, but people will change their minds and appreciate his game. You'll have to trust me.

  14. #9553
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    I agree with blackjitsu ..... My hit list would be Bargnani, Kleiza and Fields, in that order. I'd take DeRozan at 9.5 m 10 times out of 10 -- over Fields' 6 m. Fields is a nice, versatile bench player who I would be happy with at around 3 m per season. But the fact is, he can't shoot AT ALL & is not a lock down defender either to justify a starting position. He would be a worse fit than Demar in the first unit since no one will touch him. Yeah he cuts well, but we don't have great passers anyway so I'd rather have Demar who can post up about 67% of his match ups. However, if there is a deal that can land us some assets or set us up for a position to acquire assets -- where we would have to give up Demar -- I'm all for it.

    I honestly think Ross should be trained and developed into our starter because he has range, quickness & explosion -- which DeMar sort of lacks. In a perfect world, I would have DeMar coming off the bench a la James Harden in OKC. But Fields ...... I mean, look how much Thabo and Tony Allen make .... & they're elite defenders. He's a horrible acquisition, no other way to describe it.

  15. #9554
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So Stein posted this on Twitter:



    Who do you think is interested?
    move bargs before free agency means a couple of things
    1) trade exception gets us upto $15 million in salary back in player(s), while remaining under luxury tax (++talent)
    2) then amnesty kleiza, free up 4.6 million upto tax level, or a total of 8.6 million to use to sign free agents (4.6+4 million tax apron)

    considering what uriji did with denver, and the spending room mlse grants him. i think he has a chance to do some good things for toronto.

  16. #9555
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote phez wrote: View Post
    move bargs before free agency means a couple of things
    1) trade exception gets us upto $15 million in salary back in player(s), while remaining under luxury tax (++talent)
    2) then amnesty kleiza, free up 4.6 million upto tax level, or a total of 8.6 million to use to sign free agents (4.6+4 million tax apron)

    considering what uriji did with denver, and the spending room mlse grants him. i think he has a chance to do some good things for toronto.
    1) assumes a team takes Bargnani for nothing in return - highly unlikely - and it also keeps the Raptors above the salary cap.

    2) even after #1, 2) keeps the Raptors just at the salary cap meaning they can only use the MLE to sign free agents and the apron has no impact on anything because it is about $14M away.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #9556
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    From insider:

    Considering that he is owed about $23 million over the final two seasons of his contract, has a dramatic propensity for long-term injuries (98 missed games over past three seasons) and diminishing statistical returns the past few seasons, moving Bargs would likely be priority No. 1 for any GM. The question is whether Ujiri can pull it off without simply trading Bargnani's contract just to clear it off their books.

    The Charlotte Bobcats, Philadelphia 76ers and Chicago Bulls all reportedly talked to the Raps at the trade deadline about Bargnani, and there are a number of teams with the requisite cap space and potential roster holes (Phoenix Suns, Atlanta Hawks, Sacramento Kings) to make a deal with the Raps if they think he can turn things around in a new locale, so perhaps Ujiri will have some luck moving the big man.
    The bulls talk is well documented, and i believe i remember hearing about philly, but bobcats? Anyone remember anything about that?
    @jerboat

  18. #9557
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    From insider:



    The bulls talk is well documented, and i believe i remember hearing about philly, but bobcats? Anyone remember anything about that?
    Yes, for Gordon.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #9558
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Yes, for Gordon.
    Crap, that's right. Bargs absolutely needs to go but i'm not sure i'd do that deal.
    @jerboat

  20. #9559
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Crap, that's right. Bargs absolutely needs to go but i'm not sure i'd do that deal.
    Gordon has an expiring contract next season.. I would definitely do it to help get Bargs contract off the books early. If Charlotte throws in a draft pick even better.

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  22. #9560
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Crap, that's right. Bargs absolutely needs to go but i'm not sure i'd do that deal.
    The only benefits to that deal would be that Gordon's an expiring contract and it would be added wing depth, which could provide insurance to pursue other wing-related trades.

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