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  • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Just imagine him beside Dwight Howard. Disgusting 1-2 punch.
    Not to mention that system is very much geared to his style of play.
    Orlando won't make it to the Finals because they are no longer the defensive team they were before the trade. Dwight Howard is a great defensive player, but you can't surround him with crappy defenders and expect him to make of for them. Bargnani would still be a liability on defense. Teams would simply isolate Bargnani like they do now. Unless the Magic intend to play strictly zone, which is probably not a good idea, Howard would have to constantly leave his man to help Bargnani, leaving his man open.

    Playing beside Howard would obviously help Bargnani, but he's a liability no matter who he plays beside.
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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      Of course, if he had been traded this past summer, like I kept saying, none of this would have been necessary. Of course, I was a hater whose opinion didn't matter. The fact that I was right was irrelevant.
      And how would they have been better off trading him last summer than this summer? They had to try him out in the role he's played this year. They've seen it through now. This summer is a far better time to trade the guy. Inflated stats, unique skill set and great size. I think he's more marketable now to a team looking for extra scoring punch and a new dynamic.

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        And how would they have been better off trading him last summer than this summer? They had to try him out in the role he's played this year. They've seen it through now. This summer is a far better time to trade the guy. Inflated stats, unique skill set and great size. I think he's more marketable now to a team looking for extra scoring punch and a new dynamic.
        Last summer his potential was still a bit unknown. My biggest fear, and what has basically happened, is that his fatal flaws have been exposed badly. Just look at the forum. Last summer, there were still some that thought he could become a decent rebounder and defender. Does ANYONE really see that happening now?

        This past summer, you knew he could score. I mean, he's only scoring 4 ppg more, but on 4 more shots. His efficiency has gone down.

        With players like Bargnani, the shine of the "if only" potential has more trade value than his actual game.
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        • I'm going to have disagree with you. His efficiency has gone down because he's now the guy teams primarily focus on and there is no one on the team to take a little heat off him like he could do for Bosh. Any team trading for him is looking for extra scoring punch and to add a new dynamic to their team. They would not be looking for him to be their franchise center piece. Last summer he would have been still viewed as a complementary piece, a side kick. You are looking at the basic stats but there is a lot more going on. He is one of the most skilled big men in the league. He can score from anywhere. His offensive game has taken a step forward every year and this season is no different. He has moved his game in closer to the bucket, taking less threes and getting to the rim more. Without Bargnani the offense would be absolutely horrendous. As in pathetic, bottom of the league. I think you need to look beyond the stats because you are clearly missing how much Bargnani affects the offense even when he's not holding the ball.

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          • Apollo wrote: View Post
            I'm going to have disagree with you. His efficiency has gone down because he's now the guy teams primarily focus on and there is no one on the team to take a little heat off him like he could do for Bosh. Any team trading for him is looking for extra scoring punch and to add a new dynamic to their team. They would not be looking for him to be their franchise center piece. Last summer he would have been still viewed as a complementary piece, a side kick. You are looking at the basic stats but there is a lot more going on. He is one of the most skilled big men in the league. He can score from anywhere. His offensive game has taken a step forward every year and this season is no different. He has moved his game in closer to the bucket, taking less threes and getting to the rim more. Without Bargnani the offense would be absolutely horrendous. As in pathetic, bottom of the league. I think you need to look beyond the stats because you are clearly missing how much Bargnani affects the offense even when he's not holding the ball.
            His fatal flaws have absolutely nothing to do with his offense. I agree that his offense has improved, but the fact is he's never going to be a top ten scorer in the league. Not without taking 30 spg. That has become pretty evident this season. And I have no doubt he has a very positive effect on the offense.

            Unfortunately, what has been exposed this year is that his positive effect on the offense is negated by his problems on the defensive end and on the boards. As I said, not even his fans argue whether or not he's a half decent defensive player or rebounder anymore. That speaks volumes.

            The fact is that it's become fully apparent this season that he can never be a 30 mpg player on a contender because he hurts you so much for half the time he's out there.
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            • Tim W.;64635B wrote:
              By sending him to the bench, which is exactly what is going to happen, you're paying a bench player who can't play defense or rebound $9 million. That pretty much kills his trade value. The logical thing to do would be to trade him while his value is about as high as it's going to get. His stats are overinflated because he plays on a bad team and plays too many minutes. Trade him this summer for something of value and be rid of him. His trade value is far higher than his value to the team.
              Yeah, well if he ends up coming off the bench, he'll join the long list of NBA players that are overpaid, not that big a deal. Overall, the worst thing will have been that the Raps had the 1st overall pick in a year where there was no superstar. Not that they ended up paying him $9 million instead of $5 million.

              Tim W.;64635B wrote:
              Of course, if he had been traded this past summer, like I kept saying, none of this would have been necessary. Of course, I was a hater whose opinion didn't matter. The fact that I was right was irrelevant.
              Talking about trading Bargs is all guesswork because no one knows what BC ever got offered. IMO after Bargs 2nd season, his value was pretty much shot around the league. I dont think there was ever a point you were going to get an exceptional young player for him. Since then, it has made as much sense to hold on to him and hope he puts it together, rather than dumping him for nothing.

              But again that gets back into could've/would've/should've. Seriously, there's a lot of things the Raps could have done differently the last 5 years.

              Point is AS OF NOW, TODAY, what is going to happen with Bargs? Anyone familiar with the whole picture of the organization has to know that he was going to get started this year, and its not going to change at this point in the season unless due to injury.

              Realistically, next training camp he wont be guaranteed starter's minutes. And if he is the same player, he'll be a rotational big man, which is then probably the role he'll take for the rest of his career.

              And so will be the story of a big lanky kid from Rome, who made it to the NBA and played for the Toronto Raptors.....

              Comment


              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                I agree that ignoring his deficiencies and wanting to trade him for nothing are two extremes that are a little ridiculous. HOWEVER, I don't see how yet another summer is going to help him when he's already had four of them and we've seen no improvement.
                Also I agree that I dont see how its now going to click this summer, but at the season-end interviews they're not going to say "you're hopeless, you're coming off the bench next summer" LOL. They're going to say "work with a big man coach" and next year "you're not guaranteed starter's minutes"......because you are a F'CKN weird backwards player (no they wont add that last part).

                Its weird but I dont think he has actually spent a whole summer with a Big Man Coach though....correct me if I am wrong. IMO too much damn time with the damn Italian National Team dammit
                Last edited by Ruuuuu; Thu Feb 10, 2011, 11:47 PM.

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                • Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                  Yeah, well if he ends up coming off the bench, he'll join the long list of NBA players that are overpaid, not that big a deal. Overall, the worst thing will have been that the Raps had the 1st overall pick in a year where there was no superstar. Not that they ended up paying him $9 million instead of $5 million.
                  If a $9 million bench player isn't a big deal, tell that to all the Raptor fans who were clamouring for Calderon to be traded for nothing because didn't want a backup PG making $9 million. Or those who thought Amir was vastly overpaid when they thought he was making $7 million a season.

                  And the NBA economy has changed. A few years ago, a guy like Amir probably would have made twice as much because he's an athletic big man who can defend, rebound and score around the basket. He made $3 million a year with his previous contract despite barely even playing. That's the same that Glen Davis is making this year.

                  Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                  Talking about trading Bargs is all guesswork because no one knows what BC ever got offered. IMO after Bargs 2nd season, his value was pretty much shot around the league. I dont think there was ever a point you were going to get an exceptional young player for him. Since then, it has made as much sense to hold on to him and hope he puts it together, rather than dumping him for nothing.

                  But again that gets back into could've/would've/should've. Seriously, there's a lot of things the Raps could have done differently the last 5 years.

                  Point is AS OF NOW, TODAY, what is going to happen with Bargs? Anyone familiar with the whole picture of the organization has to know that he was going to get started this year, and its not going to change at this point in the season unless due to injury.

                  Realistically, next training camp he wont be guaranteed starter's minutes. And if he is the same player, he'll be a rotational big man, which is then probably the role he'll take for the rest of his career.

                  And so will be the story of a big lanky kid from Rome, who made it to the NBA and played for the Toronto Raptors.....
                  Yes, Bargnani's trade value is obviously guesswork, but to say it was shot after his second year I think is vastly underestimating the desire many GMs have for a player like Bargnani. If everyone thought like the Spurs, guys like Amare Stoudemire (big men who don't play defense) would be making the MLE instead of the max, and Don Nelson would never have been given a job after his first go around with Golden State, or even with Milwaukee. Obviously you and I don't value Bargnani much, but I don't value a lot of players who are apparently coveted around the league.

                  Now, obviously last summer has come and gone, but my point is that the longer you keep Bargnani, the less trade value he has. This summer he has to go. No ands, ifs, or buts. He's literally a liability on the team and giving him minutes simply limits the potential of the team because of his fatal flaws.

                  While I don't think Bargnani has to be given away for nothing, if push came to shove, I'd rather dump him for nothing than keep him and continue this charade that's become the "what if Bargnani puts it all together" show. The team needs to move in another direction and that direction does not include a big man who can defend or rebound.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                  • Apollo wrote: View Post
                    I'm going to have disagree with you. His efficiency has gone down because he's now the guy teams primarily focus on and there is no one on the team to take a little heat off him like he could do for Bosh. Any team trading for him is looking for extra scoring punch and to add a new dynamic to their team. They would not be looking for him to be their franchise center piece. Last summer he would have been still viewed as a complementary piece, a side kick. You are looking at the basic stats but there is a lot more going on. He is one of the most skilled big men in the league. He can score from anywhere. His offensive game has taken a step forward every year and this season is no different. He has moved his game in closer to the bucket, taking less threes and getting to the rim more. Without Bargnani the offense would be absolutely horrendous. As in pathetic, bottom of the league. I think you need to look beyond the stats because you are clearly missing how much Bargnani affects the offense even when he's not holding the ball.
                    This is why I think Bargnani will be an important part of the Raptors in years to come. Just imagine, we manage to draft a guy like Irving. DeRozan fulfilling his potential, and Ed Davis too. Hopefully, we can get multiple picks in the 15-20 range, and get a good, scoring swingman, or a good defensive center. And with Bargnani off the bench, he could be unstoppable. Causing problems to defenses, and scoring more efficiently IMO because he won't have long stretches on the floor, giving him more energy. Right now we can't do this, as we have no one that can start in his place, but the future, a guy like Bargnani off the bench can be a great thing. No other big-man in the league has his skill-set.

                    Comment


                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      If a $9 million bench player isn't a big deal, tell that to all the Raptor fans who were clamouring for Calderon to be traded for nothing because didn't want a backup PG making $9 million. Or those who thought Amir was vastly overpaid when they thought he was making $7 million a season.

                      And the NBA economy has changed. A few years ago, a guy like Amir probably would have made twice as much because he's an athletic big man who can defend, rebound and score around the basket. He made $3 million a year with his previous contract despite barely even playing. That's the same that Glen Davis is making this year.
                      Im talking about the big picture here. If you consider the whole Bargnani saga if it indeed plays out with him becoming a scorer off the bench in the next couple of years....the main things we will look back and remember are things like: Raps had a 1st overall pick in a weak draft, and Bargs was this uniquely talented player who just never could get the fundaments of playing as a big man. These will be the "tragedies". Not that in the middle somewhere, he was signed to a $9 million dollar contract, instead of $5 million.

                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Yes, Bargnani's trade value is obviously guesswork, but to say it was shot after his second year I think is vastly underestimating the desire many GMs have for a player like Bargnani. If everyone thought like the Spurs, guys like Amare Stoudemire (big men who don't play defense) would be making the MLE instead of the max, and Don Nelson would never have been given a job after his first go around with Golden State, or even with Milwaukee. Obviously you and I don't value Bargnani much, but I don't value a lot of players who are apparently coveted around the league.

                      Now, obviously last summer has come and gone, but my point is that the longer you keep Bargnani, the less trade value he has. This summer he has to go. No ands, ifs, or buts. He's literally a liability on the team and giving him minutes simply limits the potential of the team because of his fatal flaws.

                      While I don't think Bargnani has to be given away for nothing, if push came to shove, I'd rather dump him for nothing than keep him and continue this charade that's become the "what if Bargnani puts it all together" show. The team needs to move in another direction and that direction does not include a big man who can defend or rebound.
                      I disagree with you here. I dont think he is going to be dumped unless he becomes a "cancer" (which could possibly happen if he will not accept a reduced role at any cost - but I doubt it).

                      And I just dont think there will be any worthwhile trade offers in summer. You cant get a better young player for him, and you cant get a top 5 pick. What are you going to trade him for? The only people who are given away are "salary dumps" and "cancers".

                      The natural progression of this is coming off the bench heading into next season.

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                      • Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                        Im talking about the big picture here. If you consider the whole Bargnani saga if it indeed plays out with him becoming a scorer off the bench in the next couple of years....the main things we will look back and remember are things like: Raps had a 1st overall pick in a weak draft, and Bargs was this uniquely talented player who just never could get the fundaments of playing as a big man. These will be the "tragedies". Not that in the middle somewhere, he was signed to a $9 million dollar contract, instead of $5 million.
                        You know, I've never cared or complained where Bargnani was drafted. It simply doesn't matter. As soon as the players start playing, where they were drafted or not drafted goes out the window. I've also never complained about the contract he signed. For his production and potential, I thought it was a fair contract. Obviously he was paid to be a starter and if he starts playing 20 mpg, which is what I think he should be playing (at most), then he's overpaid. But the contract is really the least of Bargnani's problems. If he was paid $5 million, it still wouldn't change the fact that he's a liability half the time he's on the floor.

                        Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                        I disagree with you here. I dont think he is going to be dumped unless he becomes a "cancer" (which could possibly happen if he will not accept a reduced role at any cost - but I doubt it).

                        And I just dont think there will be any worthwhile trade offers in summer. You cant get a better young player for him, and you cant get a top 5 pick. What are you going to trade him for? The only people who are given away are "salary dumps" and "cancers".

                        The natural progression of this is coming off the bench heading into next season.
                        I don't think Bargnani will ever be a cancer in the normal sense of the word, but while a guy like Stephon Marbury was a guy who had a negative effect on the lockerroom, Bargnani has a negative effect on the floor.

                        Is Bargnani's offensive game so outstanding that it outweighs the negative effect he has on the other end of the court? I really don't think so. Bargnani is a very good scorer, but he's simply not extraordinary. If he were, he'd be averaging more than 21 ppg on 18 shots per game. Yes, he's a matchup nightmare for most bigs, but teams are starting to realize that they can defend him by sticking a tall small forward on him. And the fact is that unless he's scoring at least .75 points per minute, he gives up as more than he produces because he does nothing else.

                        True winners don't play guys who refuse to do the dirty work. Bargnani either can't or won't. When in doubt, I usually just think: WWPD?

                        What Would Popovich Do?

                        If Bargnani was drafted by the Spurs, they would have traded him away by now because they know what it takes to win.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                        • JoePanini wrote: View Post
                          This is why I think Bargnani will be an important part of the Raptors in years to come. Just imagine, we manage to draft a guy like Irving. DeRozan fulfilling his potential, and Ed Davis too. Hopefully, we can get multiple picks in the 15-20 range, and get a good, scoring swingman, or a good defensive center. And with Bargnani off the bench, he could be unstoppable. Causing problems to defenses, and scoring more efficiently IMO because he won't have long stretches on the floor, giving him more energy. Right now we can't do this, as we have no one that can start in his place, but the future, a guy like Bargnani off the bench can be a great thing. No other big-man in the league has his skill-set.
                          The Raptors are a work in progress. Unfortunately Bargnani is currently the face of the franchise and currently the go to guy. He is a Robin - or WonderWoman, for that matter - in search of a Batman. Hopefully, as Joe mentions, DD and Ed reach potential plus some solid drafting and maybe even a free agent or two in addition to Amir and, possibly, Barbosa. I really don't think this team is that far away. There is no doubt playing with Bargnani is unconventional but until all the pieces are put in place with the current rebuild I'm not ready to trade him just yet.

                          The guy's contract says it all. He is paid along the lines of third banana salary. He is the teams best scorer but hardly best complete player. Once other talent is brought in and current talent matures, I think he will become much more appreciated.

                          Also, he could very well become a 6th man at some point. That is something that deserves consideration and I honestly haven't given much thought to. Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Toni Kukoc, Bill Walton, Kevin McHale were all starting calibre talent who, for one reason or another, played off the bench - and also won 6th man of the year awards doing it.

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                          • Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                            Its weird but I dont think he has actually spent a whole summer with a Big Man Coach though....correct me if I am wrong. IMO too much damn time with the damn Italian National Team dammit
                            He absolutely has spent quite a bit of time with Big Man Coaches. Whether or not he's spent an entire summer, is irrelevant.
                            He has been with Pete Newell, who is:
                            Considered "America's Basketball Guru", Newell conducts an annual training camp for centers and forwards known simply as "Big Man Camp", which has since been informally dubbed "Pete Newell's Big Man Camp". The camp originally when word spread that Newell was working with Kermit Washington. After Washington's game rapidly improved, more and more big men started to work with Newell and he later opened the camp. The camp's impressive participants list features over 200 current and former NBA players.[5] Newell has attracted this list of players due to his reputation of teaching footwork, being what one publication described as "The Footwork Master".[3] Former attendants include Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Walton, and many others.[5] The camp is almost seen as standard for players coming out of college into the NBA; according to ESPN's Ric Bucher, "[ [f]or the past 24 years, every big man of any significance has spent at least one summer week trying to get close enough to Pete.".[2] Since Newell opened the camp in 1976 he has not accepted any money for his services, instead he has donated his time feeling that as he states, "I owe it to the game. I can never repay what the game has given me."[6] The camp has taken place in Honolulu, Hawaii and most recently Las Vegas, Nevada.
                            Not to mention, Franceso Vitucci, Messina's Lead Assistant for a while, has worked with him extensively as well.
                            Check this link out. GREAT resource for what Bargs should be doing and what the Coaching Staff should be doing with him.

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                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              The Raptors are a work in progress. Unfortunately Bargnani is currently the face of the franchise and currently the go to guy. He is a Robin - or WonderWoman, for that matter - in search of a Batman. Hopefully, as Joe mentions, DD and Ed reach potential plus some solid drafting and maybe even a free agent or two in addition to Amir and, possibly, Barbosa. I really don't think this team is that far away. There is no doubt playing with Bargnani is unconventional but until all the pieces are put in place with the current rebuild I'm not ready to trade him just yet.

                              The guy's contract says it all. He is paid along the lines of third banana salary. He is the teams best scorer but hardly best complete player. Once other talent is brought in and current talent matures, I think he will become much more appreciated.

                              Also, he could very well become a 6th man at some point. That is something that deserves consideration and I honestly haven't given much thought to. Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Toni Kukoc, Bill Walton, Kevin McHale were all starting calibre talent who, for one reason or another, played off the bench - and also won 6th man of the year awards doing it.
                              Those guys you mentioned all play(ed) starter minutes. The whole problem with Bargnani is that he shouldn't be playing more than 20 mpg because he's such a liability on the defensive end. Having him come off the bench is great, but that doesn't mean he's no longer the defensive liability he is starting. The whole idea of bringing him off the bench is that you limit the damage he does to your defense by playing him fewer minutes. If he's not hot, he doesn't play.

                              And apart from Jamal Crawford, all those players could do more than one thing to help the team. And as I've said before, the Hawks are not going ANYWHERE in the playoffs. Crawford wouldn't play the same type of role on a real contender because he's a horrible defender.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                              • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                                He absolutely has spent quite a bit of time with Big Man Coaches. Whether or not he's spent an entire summer, is irrelevant.
                                He has been with Pete Newell, who is:


                                Not to mention, Franceso Vitucci, Messina's Lead Assistant for a while, has worked with him extensively as well.
                                Check this link out. GREAT resource for what Bargs should be doing and what the Coaching Staff should be doing with him.
                                He also worked with Moses Malone, among others.

                                Besides, it really doesn't take a great big man coach to teach a guy something he should already know after 4.5 seasons in the league. I could show him what he has to do, but it doesn't mean he's going to do it.

                                I honestly have never seen a guy who has had so many excuses made for him. It's endless. And they all end up being bogus.

                                - He has been playing out of position
                                - He wasn't given a chance
                                - Bosh was preventing him from getting rebounds
                                - He doesn't get many rebounds because he takes a lot of threes
                                - Calderon freezes him out
                                - Mitchell was being too hard on him
                                - Triano is being too soft on him
                                - He's never had a chance to be the #1 option
                                - He'd play better defense on a better defensive team
                                - He's not surrounded by the right players
                                - He needs to spend the summer with Hakeem
                                - Etc. etc

                                Bargnani is the prototypical "he just needs" player. He just needs this or that in order to become a great player. NBA graveyards are littered with players like that.

                                Is it too much to ask for to have a player that doesn't require the perfect set of circumstances in order to be effective?
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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