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  • The +/- statistic is one of the stupidest stats. There is a reason why analysts never talk about it. Only hater fans try to implement it to try and support their weak arguments. You don't blame one player for defense, rather the entire team for it. Raptor fans love to hate on the good players but love the bum ones who can't win games for you. This is why you guys will always remain fans and no where near teams unless its as a garbage man. Because you'd have starting lineups as Jake Voshkul, Pops Mensau- Bonsu, Reggie Evans, Derrick Martin, and Sonny Weems. Yes their hustle players, and you can appreciate that, but when you SUCK, what else can you really do but try? Sumtin' to think about.

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    • Buddahfan wrote: View Post
      No its based on watching him play over the last two seasons and the data from website like basketballvalue.com and 82games.com

      Players Ratings Sort Worst to Best 2009-10 and 2010-11 through yesterday - Picture stops after Bargnani

      1 Year Unadjusted Ratings column.

      8th worst in the league this season



      12th worst in the league last season.
      Further proof one can use stats to show anything. Give me the match up problems Bargnani creates with some solid perimeter defenders playing with him over trading the guy any day.

      Comment


      • bleeding_raptor wrote: View Post
        The +/- statistic is one of the stupidest stats. There is a reason why analysts never talk about it. Only hater fans try to implement it to try and support their weak arguments. You don't blame one player for defense, rather the entire team for it. Raptor fans love to hate on the good players but love the bum ones who can't win games for you. This is why you guys will always remain fans and no where near teams unless its as a garbage man. Because you'd have starting lineups as Jake Voshkul, Pops Mensau- Bonsu, Reggie Evans, Derrick Martin, and Sonny Weems. Yes their hustle players, and you can appreciate that, but when you SUCK, what else can you really do but try? Sumtin' to think about.
        Of course it doesn't matter if your team is constantly outscored when you are on the court.

        Lets change the rules of the game.

        Team with most missed shots wins.

        In addition when you are one of the wost in the league and the worst or second worst on your team there is a problem especially when you start.
        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

        Memories some so sweet, indeed

        Larger Photo of the avatar



        “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

        Comment


        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          Further proof one can use stats to show anything. Give me the match up problems Bargnani creates with some solid perimeter defenders playing with him over trading the guy any day.
          The Raptors over the last two seasons are outscored by more per 100 possessions when he is on the court than any other Raptors starter.

          The only match-up problem is that he can't outplay the likes of M. Mohammed or anyone better than Mohammed except in a fluke game or two.
          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

          Memories some so sweet, indeed

          Larger Photo of the avatar



          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

          Comment


          • i dont really like bargs.. never did... but if we were to get a "REAL" STARTING CALIBUR" Center to offset Bargs Shotty D... then im all for keeping Bargs....If not then TRADE HIM! ....LOL

            Comment


            • buddafan buy a punching bag venting on a board doesn't relief stress
              and stop trading andrea at 8.5 mil he's a bargain at the moment

              Comment


              • Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
                I really need to add a "yawns" smilie because another trade Andrea thread is getting old Buddah.



                +1 ...... But I'd part with Weems long before DeMar. (ie see my Weems rant)
                These "trade the guy now!!!" threads, after one bad game, are all getting old in general.

                Comment


                • MaGIX wrote: View Post
                  buddafan buy a punching bag venting on a board doesn't relief stress
                  and stop trading andrea at 8.5 mil he's a bargain at the moment
                  I would add that I believe his trade value is half that in NBA terms due to a base year contract exception or something like that so in reality all you would get back is a $4mil player and that is not enough return.

                  But don't accuse me of being a fan of bargnani. The guy is lazier than a past date limp cucumber most nights. About as soft too.

                  Comment


                  • DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
                    (Yawn)

                    In the immortal words of Denny Green, this team is what I thought it was. They are a young team that might have talent that are going to be wildly inconsistent and anyone waiting for Bargnani to be a 'franchise player' will have to keep waiting. No one needs to be traded or moved or shot or whatever. Right now, they just aren't a good team. Whether it's because they need time because they are young or just not talented, we'll just have to see. I suspect it is the latter, but whatever. What I suspect this game confirms however is that if Bargnani isn't scoring, he's not exactly helping the team win in different ways and that's something a franchise player (hell, even a Carlos Boozer type player) can do.

                    What WAS interesting is that they built a lead in the first half with a Davis-Johnson-DeRozan-Weems-Bayless lineup and while the next time they were out there they didn't look so hot, I have a weird feeling that could be a decent lineup in the future.

                    And I can't wait until I hear the "See how Calderon is so valuable to this team" chatter, because if he was playing, he would obviously help prevent the likes of Kwame Brown and Nazr Mohammed getting deep post position....
                    I alos noticed that line-up was effective last night and Triano went right back to it at the end of the 2nd quarter. The intensity picked up considerably when those players were on the floor together.

                    Comment


                    • I didn't watch the game last night and while in the restaurant have dinner, I promptly checked the score with 2:44 left in the last quarter. After seeing Nazr Mohammed leading the team in scoring and rebounds, I had one conclusion... Bargs did not eat his magic banana during half time. Can I switch back to my old Avatar?
                      “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        I assume this is based on the last 5 games of which they have lost 4.

                        If you look at the loss vs NYK when he had 41, he was minus 8. Look at tonight, he is minus 15.

                        But in a loss to the Nuggets he was even when most of the other starters were minus double digits.

                        Versus DET he was minus 1 when DD and WEems were minus 15 and 20.

                        VS OKC he is +17 when Amir is +7 and JC+8.

                        OR how about the loss vs. BOS when he is minus 6 and the rest of the starters are minus 19, 18, 13, and 22?

                        Better yet, how about the win vs. BOS when he is +6 and all the other starters are minus 13, 18, 2, and 19?

                        Bargnani doesn't need to and shouldn't be traded. Bargnani and the rest of the team need to get better. It is quite easy to pick any player on a lottery bound team and say that player gets out scored when he is on the court - especially the team's leading minutes played.
                        First you discard the numbers from baskeballvalue.com as meaningless saying as I recall that numbers can be manipulated then you proceed to attempt to defend Bargnani, but using numbers from selected games.

                        Geez.

                        End of conversation.
                        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                        Memories some so sweet, indeed

                        Larger Photo of the avatar



                        “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                        Comment


                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          These "trade the guy now!!!" threads, after one bad game, are all getting old in general.

                          One bad game?

                          How about 1 + bad seasons.


                          I can't comment before last season because I only watched him play maybe a dozen or so games before last season.
                          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                          Memories some so sweet, indeed

                          Larger Photo of the avatar



                          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                          Comment


                          • if Sam Mitchell was left in charge Bargs Defence prob would be much better by now...or hed be sitting most nights.....jay seems to force feed players minutes they dont deserve...

                            the biggest mistake BC has made to date is firing Sam....

                            Comment


                            • Buddahfan wrote: View Post

                              One bad game?

                              How about 1 + bad seasons.


                              I can't comment before last season because I only watched him play maybe a dozen or so games before last season.
                              He hasn't played bad this season. He's no superstar but without hid scoring the Raptors would be a lot worse off. It's not like Amir Johnson has created issues for defenses.

                              Comment


                              • One more thing Buddah. What do you think they can get for him and how does that make the team better?

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