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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    Us fans had nothing to do with Hoffa leaving town Tim. Hoffa sucked, he had no talent. Andrea has lots of talent.

    Your reply is again vague enough so that if we come back to this later you can warp it into whatever you want. What if he plays average defense and improves to 7 rebounds a game, is that good enough for you? Please elaborate on what it is you're looking for. The reason I'm picking out you is because you're the most anti-Bargnani poster in here. I'd like to understand in exact terms what it is the guy needs to do to make you happy.
    Vague enough? Excuse me? If you think I'm a stat milestone guy, then you really haven't understood anything I've said since I've been on this forum. What I want from Bargnani is for him to have a positive impact the entire time he's on the court. I'm not sure why that's so much to ask. I want him to not be a weakness that other teams can exploit in the playoffs.

    Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
    No, you're right. Not exactly like this, but pretty close. I've heard great things about him in training camp before. I've heard that this is the year he's finally turning it around. I've already heard all of this. Maybe not EXACTLY like this, but pretty close.
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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      Vague enough? Excuse me? If you think I'm a stat milestone guy, then you really haven't understood anything I've said since I've been on this forum. What I want from Bargnani is for him to have a positive impact the entire time he's on the court. I'm not sure why that's so much to ask. I want him to not be a weakness that other teams can exploit in the playoffs.
      That's how I feel as well. It's not about the numbers, its about not being a liability half the time he's on the court - especially if he is to be given heavy minutes. For his salary it would be hard to justify giving him a 6th man role though.

      Apollo wrote: View Post
      No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
      I think you have too much faith that Casey is going to make a difference. Casey is practically a rookie when it comes to coaching.. and in the NBA with professionals who are making serious coin, that's an extremely difficult task. He did not turn Dirk into a defensive juggernaut, so I'm not sure why you would expect him to do that for Bargnani... and Dallas had much better players (Marion, Haywood, Chandler, Kidd) around Dirk than Bargnani has around him (Gray?, Magloire?).

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        Us fans had nothing to do with Hoffa leaving town Tim. Hoffa sucked, he had no talent. Andrea has lots of talent.

        Your reply is again vague enough so that if we come back to this later you can warp it into whatever you want. What if he plays average defense and improves to 7 rebounds a game, is that good enough for you? Please elaborate on what it is you're looking for. The reason I'm picking out you is because you're the most anti-Bargnani poster in here. I'd like to understand in exact terms what it is the guy needs to do to make you happy.




        No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
        You quantified 1 number, 7 rebounds... which is a well below average rebounding number (per 36).

        I can already tell you if you feel being below average is acceptable then clearly there is a significant difference in what is 'good enough' already.

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        • No, we haven't. Not like this. This is different from the past. The past involved all talk about what he needs to do, coming from both the coach and GM. The past involved talk from Bargnani about what he needs to do. This is talking about what he is doing right now. About the positive changes he's making happen. The coaches, inside sources and the players are raving about him. This is different. Now we need to sit back and wait to see if it sticks and translates to a much better two way player.
          ofcourse we've never heard this stuff before:


          from his rookie year:

          After Bargnani and his teammates banged bodies for nearly two hours, Mitchell pulled the rookie aside. This was the type of aggressiveness he wanted to see, he told him. The next night in Utah, Bargnani was unrecognizable, nearly quad rupling his then-season average with 15 points.

          "From then on, he's played like a man," says star teammate Chris Bosh.

          LAST JUNE'S critics didn't expect such compliments to be lobbed Bargnani's way when the Raptors made him the first Euro ever taken at the top of the draft. At least not this soon. In spite of Dirk's dominance and the capable contributions of imports like Mehmet Okur and Boris Diaw, many incoming Euros suffer the indignity of being compared to high-lottery busts Darko Milicic and Nikoloz Tskitishvili. Twice-bitten scouts won't soon forget that, blinded by overseas hype, they once overlooked Bosh, Carmelo, D-Wade and Amaré for those two. So when Bargnani's name was the first one David Stern called, a common sentiment was, Who'd the Raptors leave on the table by banking on the next Euro-bust?

          The skeptics have been shamed. With a stroke as pure as bottled water, Bargnani is already one of the league's top sixth men and Brandon Roy's chief competition for Rookie of the Year honors
          Five of his 10 rebounds that night were offensive, and all five came after Bosh went off on him. Challenge him after he fails to grab a single rebound in a game, as Mitchell did Feb. 14, and get seven boards the next time out. Throw an elbow his way, as several opponents have, and you'd better duck. Unlike most Euro bigs, Bargnani yearns one day to set up in the post. He works on his inside game daily with assistant coaches and can't wait until he can regularly use his size advantage to exploit folks down low.
          Everyone has a theory about where Bargnani gets his toughness and unusual swagger.
          http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3634182

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          • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
            You quantified 1 number, 7 rebounds... which is a well below average rebounding number (per 36).

            I can already tell you if you feel being below average is acceptable then clearly there is a significant difference in what is 'good enough' already.
            My aim was not to quantify anything in my post. 7 was an arbitrary number I threw out there and also I made no mention of per 36. My number meant nothing, I was looking for Tim's magic number.

            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            Vague enough? Excuse me? If you think I'm a stat milestone guy, then you really haven't understood anything I've said since I've been on this forum.
            I guess not seeing how you're his biggest complainer around here when it comes to his rebounding numbers. Come on now, you must have a number. If Bargnani was grabbing 10 boards a game we both know you would be only focused on his defense then.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              My aim was not to quantify anything in my post. 7 was an arbitrary number I threw out there and also I made no mention of per 36. My number meant nothing, I was looking for Tim's magic number.



              I guess not seeing how you're his biggest complainer around here when it comes to his rebounding numbers. Come on now, you must have a number. If Bargnani was grabbing 10 boards a game we both know you would be only focused on his defense then.
              ahh so the 'haters' need a number, but you can remain vague. Sounds fair.

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              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                I guess not seeing how you're his biggest complainer around here when it comes to his rebounding numbers. Come on now, you must have a number. If Bargnani was grabbing 10 boards a game we both know you would be only focused on his defense then.
                Bargnani's poor rebounding numbers are symptom of his poor rebounding ability. If he gets 8 rebounds, but allows opponents to grab boards in front of him and doesn't work for other boards, then the 8 rebounds he gets don't amount to much. It's not the number that make the impact, but the consistent skill of rebounding.

                And I've ALWAYS stated that Bargnani defense is his biggest problem. Always.

                It's not as if I criticize the guy because I don't like him. I have literally no personal feelings about him one way or the other. In fact, from what Ive seen and read, he sounds like he's probably a nice guy. I had the same reaction to Villanueva. He was apparently a really nice guy with great offensive skills but his defense was atrocious. And his rebounding was better than Bargnani's. I had VERY similar arguments about him when he was a Raptor, but fortunately he lasted only a year in a Raptor uniform.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                  ahh so the 'haters' need a number, but you can remain vague. Sounds fair.
                  No, I can give you a number if you want one but you're missing the point. I'm not the one trying to discredit anything positive said about the player. I'm not making claims that he's a lost cause and that he should be traded right now. What I'm getting at is if Tim(because that's who I was conversing with about this) is so against him then put his money where his mouth is so to speak. Tell us what he considers acceptable so that there is no chance for a cop out later when all the cards are on the table. Strong words should be easily backed up with clear expectations and in the case of rebounding, quantified to some measure.


                  Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  Bargnani's poor rebounding numbers are symptom of his poor rebounding ability. If he gets 8 rebounds, but allows opponents to grab boards in front of him and doesn't work for other boards, then the 8 rebounds he gets don't amount to much. It's not the number that make the impact, but the consistent skill of rebounding.
                  Tim, you of all people must realize Bargnani couldn't half ass his way to 8 rebounds a game. I mean all over this board you've said he doesn't have the talent to do it and great effort from him can't make up for it. Based on everything I've read from you 8 rebounds would be a huge accomplishment from this no talent hack. And when you say 8 wouldn't be good if he allows opponents to grab rebounds in front of him, how many do you mean? I ask this because outside of guys like Dwight Howard and Reggie Evans, aka. the elite rebounders of the game, most decent guys on the glass lose battle from time to time in their own defensive paint. Nobody is perfect.

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                  • Apollo wrote: View Post
                    No, I can give you a number if you want one but you're missing the point. I'm not the one trying to discredit anything positive said about the player though. I'm not making claims that he's a lost cause and that he should be traded right now. What I'm getting at is if Tim(because that's who I was conversing with about this) is so against him then put his money where his mouth is so to speak. Tell us what he considers acceptable so that there is no chance for a cop out.
                    Why would you think I'd cop out?
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                    Follow me on Twitter.

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                    • Because nothing is good enough when it comes to Bargnani. The prime example of this is all the great words coming out of camp suggesting he's been the best player in camp and all you can muster is the same old same old hit campaign you've been throwing at him since... Always. I'm with you when it's justified but I don't get why you feel compelled to toss the guy under the bus because you heard he's working hard(from everybody) and that you heard he's the best guy in camp(from multiple sources). I think you'll cop out because this whole story of him doing well and you're first reaction to it perfectly illustrates that you can't see good in anything when it comes to Bargnani. That's my opinion, a guy who has been critical of Bargnani in the past, year in, year out when he's disappointed.

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                      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        So you'd trade Bargnani for cap relief? I would try to get a little more than that.
                        Me too. But you said, "Picks would be good. Scola or Odom would have been pointless." I agree on Scola. There is value in Odom's contract either through trade or keeping it to create cap space to acquire salary via trade or free agency.

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                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          Because nothing is good enough when it comes to Bargnani. The prime example of this is all the great words coming out of camp suggesting he's been the best player in camp and all you can muster the same old same old hit campaign you've been throwing at him since... Always. I'm with you when it's justified but I don't get why you feel compelled to toss the guy under the bus because you heard he's working hard(from everybody) and that you heard he's the best guy in camp(from multiple sources). I think you'll cop out because this whole story of him doing well and you're first reaction to it perfectly illustrates that you can't see good in anything when it comes to Bargnani. That's my opinion, a guy who has been critical of Bargnani in the past, year in, year out when he's disappointed.
                          Nothing is good enough when it comes to Bargnani? No, not so far. It's been five years and so far the fact that he he's barely improved in two absolutely key areas means that's not good enough. Nor should it be for anyone else.

                          Do WORDS coming out of camp impress me? No. As I said, I've heard this sort of thing before. I've heard it about Bargnani and I've heard it about other players, too. LOTS of other players. And most of the time it turns out to be nothing. Or at least temporary.

                          And how exactly am I "tossing the guy under the bus"? Because I'm not buying into the hype, just yet? You're criticizing me because I'm skeptical about a guy whose defense and rebounding have been flatlining for five years?

                          And if it's true that he has finally "got it" and that all he really needed to to is work harder to become a decent rebounder and defender, it doesn't trouble you that it has taken him until he was 26 something I figured out when I was a teenager?

                          If Bargnani WASN'T a Raptor, but played for another team, would any of you be buying into it right now? It seems that, because he's a Raptor, a lot of people here seem to have more faith in him than they would any other player. I remember hearing GREAT things about Charlie Villanueva last year during preseason. How he had been working out all summer and that he was going to focus on defense. And he had pretty much the same season he's always had.

                          I remember hearing in the preseason before Stephon Marbury's last season in the NBA, that he was at camp in the best shape in years and had a completely new attitude. And that even though people had heard this sort of thing before that this year was different because they were actually seeing the results. By the end of the year he was the NBA
                          's biggest trainwreck.

                          And those are just two very different examples.

                          And you are criticizing me for not automatically buying into it? Are you frigging joking?
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • Apollo wrote: View Post
                            No, I can give you a number if you want one but you're missing the point. I'm not the one trying to discredit anything positive said about the player. I'm not making claims that he's a lost cause and that he should be traded right now. What I'm getting at is if Tim(because that's who I was conversing with about this) is so against him then put his money where his mouth is so to speak. Tell us what he considers acceptable so that there is no chance for a cop out later when all the cards are on the table. Strong words should be easily backed up with clear expectations and in the case of rebounding, quantified to some measure.
                            no you are trying to discredit the individuals opinion instead

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                            • You want a metric for Bargnani to reach? Sure. How about a wins produced number of 0.150 per game?

                              I don't care if he gets there by becoming a more efficient shooter, by upping his rebounding or what. I just want him to be a better than average (0.100) contributor, rather than someone who actively detracts from the team by stepping on the court. If he hits 0.200 - the allstar level his supporters think he deserves - or even 0.180, I won't just shut up, I will actively praise him and become a fan.

                              And yes, WP doesn't measure defense as well as it could, but if he turns around his wins produced he will be putting in so much effort that his defense is bound to be better.

                              The flip side is if Bargnani continues to be paid a higher than average salary for a lower than average production (less than 0.100 wins produced per game), I would like to see his defenders acknowledge his offensive weaknesses (inefficient shooting) as well as his well publicized defensive and rebounding weaknesses.

                              Deal?

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                              • Wins produced, love it. A great metric that once and for all proved that the 76ers might have done much better in 2001 if only they would have dropped the mvp from their rotation because he was the 9th best player on the team.

                                http://wagesofwins.com/wins-produced...produced-2001/

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