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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    I sense a communication breakdown. An excerpt from a post I've been talking about:


    Matt commented and then I followed up with this post:


    That's above is what I posted after reading what you were saying.


    I never said you said you wouldn't support it. I said you didn't seem to be contemplating it or following the natural path of the conversation in this particular thread, which was assuming Bargnani did get it, what do we do? Not to mention when do we know when to trade him if he doesn't seem to be getting it? Also, when do you know for sure he's not going to get it given the new variables? (ie: maturity, good coach, etc.). We weren't talking about how Colangelo has built teams around him because it was irrelevant to the particular discussion. Colangelo won't need to if he Bargnani gets it and if he doesn't get it he's gone.
    sigh... follow the discussion Apollo

    the first thing is that initial comment you quoted was an addition to what to whatwhat said.

    Secondly what I said was:

    And I think thats the next level of the discussion
    and

    Is the risk of keeping/building with Bargnani worth it?
    The team needing to cover Bargnani's weaknesses was only a PART of the entire idea (I simply used my example to fully explain the last part ie. the opportunity cost of doing it). It also includes waiting for him to improve. Taking time away from other players if he doesn't or while we wait. The total opportunity cost of it all.



    Matts comment (about 'punishing Bargnani' by trading him) had NOTHING to do with what I said. It had to do with 'why do people want to trade him if he improves'? Which no one said. Which YOU in fact said you thought some people would still want him traded, while no one else actually said it. You then proceed to say that

    He [GT] doesn't even want to contemplate the possibility.
    which was based on absolutely nothing I had said up to that point in time.

    If you go back to the start and read my initial comments, I clearly stated I expected people to support him IF he made those changes. And that I would be excited if he did.

    Comment


    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      I'm going to give Bargnani another excuse - one that I do feel has merit.

      I'm not sure if anyone remembers last year but JT kept talking about roles. "Bargnani is a scorer." "Reggie is a rebounder." There were other players too if I recall correctly.

      By labelling a player how are they suppose to do the 'other' things? There seems to be a major shift in approach to not only Andrea but the team.

      I'm looking forward to this year. The only way I"ll be disappointed is if the defensive intensity has not noticeable improve and, more importantly, if players are not held responsible and accountable - and this goes for more than Andrea.
      I agree. Colangelo wouldn't let Mitchell give Bargnani what he needed and then he promoted a guy not capable to give Bargnani what he needed.

      Comment


      • tbihis wrote: View Post
        See this is why i like discussing with Nilanka, you can always argue, but there's always this kicker in the end that seems to say "we kick each other in the face, but we're still all friends!" that i like. let bygones be bygones.
        Likewise

        You'll only see me get nasty on the main site when folks start hurling obscenities because I criticized their favourite player. But show me respect, and I'll return the favour.

        BTW (unrelated to this thread), did you hear Casey's mention of Gary Payton when talking about DeRozan? I bet you appreciated that.
        Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:40 PM.

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        • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
          Just like I don't hold a 3-point specialist to the same overall shooting percentage as a player who takes the majority of his shots from very close (think Aaron Gray for example), I don't expect a big who plays away from the basket on the offensive end to grab offensive rebounds at the same rate as the average big who plays closer to the basket.

          Take Dirk Nowitski for example. Dirk has a 5:1 DR:OR ratio and despite him averaging 7.0 rebounds per game last year (7.3 rebounds per 36 minutes), he still grabbed defensive rebounds at a rate 20% higher than the rate of the average power forward. That's pretty significant in my oopnion and yet, he is a very poor rebounder for a big man according to the bar you set (about he would need to increase his rebounding rate by about 25% to meet it).

          So, simnple question, how would you rate Dirk Nowitzski as a rebounder?
          Then explain Kevin Love? Troy Murphy (when he played ofcourse)?

          Its not unreasonable to expect a big man to rebound like a big man.

          The idea of 'well he's a bad rebounder so we should set the bar low for him' is not what you are going to get from me.

          Comment


          • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
            Secondly what I said was:

            And I think thats the next level of the discussion
            and

            Is the risk of keeping/building with Bargnani worth it?
            The team needing to cover Bargnani's weaknesses was only a PART of the entire idea (I simply used my example to fully explain the last part ie. the opportunity cost of doing it). It also includes waiting for him to improve. Taking time away from other players if he doesn't or while we wait. The total opportunity cost of it all.
            That's not the next level. That's the basement. We've been there for three years now at least. Nothing new there. Either he gets it or he's gone. He's under contract, he's not in line for a greater commitment. Either he gets it now or he's dealt. I think it's that simple. To keep him another year risks little. They have an Amnesty Clause in their back pocket and that's for the worst case scenario.

            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
            He [GT] doesn't even want to contemplate the possibility.
            which was based on absolutely nothing I had said up to that point in time.
            Sorry, I assumed it since you dug up ideas from years gone by that aren't really relevant now that he has his guaranteed contract already, Colangelo has spoken out about what he needs to change or else and the Raptors have an Amnesty Clause they can use anytime down the road.

            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
            If you go back to the start and read my initial comments, I clearly stated I expected people to support him IF he made those changes. And that I would be excited if he did.
            I'm glad for that and again, I didn't say you felt otherwise. I questioned why we wanted to change the subject to things I felt were not really relevant to what we were discussing. We have like a 100 pages of that topic in the Everything Bargnani thread.

            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
            The idea of 'well he's a bad rebounder so we should set the bar low for him' is not what you are going to get from me.
            I think they're past that. Its do or die right now over this next season and change. Expectations are higher, Colangelo even said it. He has the right coach now. He brought the right approach to camp. We don't need to play with the bar. Colangelo and Casey sound like they have set the bar, it's glued... Right next to the giant motivational rock.

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            • Nilanka wrote: View Post
              Likewise

              You'll only see me get nasty on the main site when folks start throwing obscenities because I criticized their favourite player. But show me respect, and I'll return the favour.

              BTW (unrelated to this thread), did you hear Casey's mention of Gary Payton when talking about DeRozan? I bet you appreciated that.
              Oh crap nooooooo!!!! i mean im mad coz i didnt see it, but my idol mentioned in the same breath as my home team??? cant get any better than that! well, raps and champions might be better, hehehe.

              When was this??

              Comment


              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                I think the first thing to understand is we're not saying it's going to happen and we're not overlooking anything or I'm not anyway. We're saying let the season play out. This is a transitional time. If you're not down with that then fine but you're probably in for a bad experience with your point of view because it flies contrary to everything we know about how Colangelo has handled Bargnani, to deal him now before Casey can do any work on him.
                I've said many times, I fully expect Bargnani to be here until, at the very least, the last year of his contract. That doesn't mean I'm going to think its a good, or the best, idea available to this team

                Comment


                • tbihis wrote: View Post
                  Oh crap nooooooo!!!! i mean im mad coz i didnt see it, but my idol mentioned in the same breath as my home team??? cant get any better than that! well, raps and champions might be better, hehehe.

                  When was this??
                  http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...zan-s-presence

                  On Wednesday, after nearly three hours of hard slogging, the coach lavished DeRozan with a flattering point of comparison.

                  “It’s a lot of pressure, but it’s a good pressure. As a 21-year-old, it’s the best pressure you can have,” said Casey. “I remember Gary Payton as a young kid coming in, wet behind the ears, just growing up and maturing. Knowing how to be physical, knowing when to turn it up, knowing when to attack the basket, knowing how to draw fouls. All those things take time.”
                  Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:54 PM.

                  Comment


                  • tbihis wrote: View Post
                    Im not sure what you mean by "never seems to work". Are you trying to change people's minds? Maybe thats why you get so worked up all the time, its not about changing people's minds here. You say your piece and respect the other's opinion. Nobody's right or wrong here, its a forum. Its not a "make the world a better place" type thing.

                    Thats fine. I think its a part of the game. I get an insight of what theyre doing, thinking of improving, plans for the season, etc. But you do listen to Colangelo when he says he's been saying stuff about Bargnani and from what he said before, you assumed that he was on the verge of trading Bargnani or at least trading him this season, right? Interesting.....
                    It "never seems to work" because people don't seem to get what I'm saying, on that subject. And I say that because their responses don't seem to make sense to me. I expect to change people's mind as much as you do.

                    I think players and coaches speak to the media so much, and are so trained to do it that it ends up meaning absolutely nothing. Especially when they can say things for different reasons, including knowing that others are going to read their words.

                    As for Colangelo, I wasn't just going on what he was saying. That's the thing. If it was just what Colangelo said. It was a a series of things. What you have to realize is that people don't always say what they mean, when talking to the media. So you can either try and decipher it, which is difficult and usually pointless, or ignore it, which is what I usually do. But when there were a series of things that happened and were said by different people, it seemed to point to something.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      That's not the next level. That's the basement. We've been there for three years now at least. Nothing new there. Either he gets it or he's gone. He's under contract, he's not in line for a greater commitment. Either he gets it now or he's dealt. I think it's that simple. To keep him another year risks little. They have an Amnesty Clause in their back pocket and that's for the worst case scenario.



                      Sorry, I assumed it since you dug up ideas from years gone by that aren't really relevant now that he has his guaranteed contract already, Colangelo has spoken out about what he needs to change or else and the Raptors have an Amnesty Clause they can use anytime down the road.

                      I'm glad for that and again, I didn't say you felt otherwise. I questioned why we wanted to change the subject to things I felt were not really relevant to what we were discussing. We have like a 100 pages of that topic in the Everything Bargnani thread.
                      oh please apollo. If you didn't like my comments or are 'bored' with them then don't read them or respond to them. But don't tell me, based on a completely seperate discussion to the one you jumped in on and misinterpretted, what I can and can't contemplate or that it was I who was changing the discussion. Playing Bargnani just to play Bargnani still has an opportunity cost.

                      I'll also mention that the idea of 'Bargnani changing' is nothing new either. Fifth year in a row this discussion has arisen. I fully expect it next year prior to the season starting to.

                      Comment


                      • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        oh please apollo. If you didn't like my comments or are 'bored' with them then don't read them or respond to them. But don't tell me, based on a completely seperate discussion to the one you jumped in on and misinterpretted, what I can and can't contemplate or that it was I who was changing the discussion. Playing Bargnani just to play Bargnani still has an opportunity cost.

                        I'll also mention that the idea of 'Bargnani changing' is nothing new either. Fifth year in a row this discussion has arisen. I fully expect it next year prior to the season starting to.
                        Fully agree with the opportunity cost and if it means Davis not being given the same type of opportunity to prove where or if he fits on this team going forward it's a shame.

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                        • tbihis wrote: View Post
                          Well, i dont know how you can say he wont be able to "sustain" it if he improves. Didnt you say before that he's never shown improvement the past 5 years? Where are you basing that he cant "sustain" it when youve said you havent seen him improve? Personality? You just said you dont listen to interviews, how can you know a players personality by just watching him move? Some people who walk or move slow doesnt me theyre slow in the head. You can tell a lot about a person's personality when he talks.

                          Well, he went from 25 to 23. not that significant to me. It wasnt like he was the franchise player that time or a Kobe or John Wall that they expected massive production from, and they had Rasho who was pretty much play well as well. And i dont deny the fact that Mitchell did discipline him, im sure he did but can you really compare a sophomore Bargnani to the now Bargnani?

                          I too think it would have been a lot better for the team if he was moved after he was drafted, heck, it probably would have been better if he was never drafted by the Raptors. But unfortunately they did, and things that transpired after are what they are now. Again, we're not saying he will improve, its IF he improves. You want to trade him, some of us dont. So you can keep drawing as many lines as you want, ill keep moving them if he keeps improving.
                          Bargnani has never shown any SUSTAINED improvement.

                          Look at last season. Bargnani started off the season posting up a lot more and driving the ball more. In fact, in his first five games, he had a FTA/FGA ratio of 37%. That's excellent. And I recall someone here even pointing that out to me. Then the next two games he didn't get to the line once. He started taking more jumpers and settling for outside shots, more.

                          And why do YOU believe he can sustain any improvements he makes? What, in his history, makes you think he can?

                          And I'm not drawing different lines. Everyone else seems to be. I've never believed his defense will be adequate enough for him to be anything but a liability on defense and that would make it more difficult for the Raptors in the playoffs. Even if his defense improves, as I stated earlier, it would have to be a HUGE improvement for him to be adequate defensively, in my books. And just so you know I'm not picking on Bargnani, I've also said I'd want nothing to do with Amare or Boozer, either.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                            oh please apollo. If you didn't like my comments or are 'bored' with them then don't read them or respond to them. But don't tell me, based on a completely seperate discussion to the one you jumped in on and misinterpretted, what I can and can't contemplate or that it was I who was changing the discussion. Playing Bargnani just to play Bargnani still has an opportunity cost.

                            I'll also mention that the idea of 'Bargnani changing' is nothing new either. Fifth year in a row this discussion has arisen. I fully expect it next year prior to the season starting to.
                            Yeah, the idea of Bargnani changing isn't new but there is new information. There are new plot lines. The risk factor of holding him is gone now in my opinion. There is no risk to the Raptors seeing how Bargnani plays out this season or an additional season. This is my point.In the past there have been three distinct reasons why they should absolutely wait no longer to trade him.

                            • "We need to trade him right now before the mystic of being the #1 pick rubs off and we can't get top value for him."
                            • "We need to move him right now because we don't want to see him locked up to a long term contract"
                            • "We need to trade him right now because his value is only going to lessen. We need to get rid of this big contract before it can't be moved"


                            All reasonable points when they were made countless times in the past but now there is no risk to keeping him. Cutting him wouldn't put them back too much, they're rebuilding. One more higher lottery pick? Not so bad when they suck now anyway. The Amnesty Clause is a game changer. And if they decide to trade him, well, he is what he is right now. I don't see his value being less at the end of the season if he scores like last year and doesn't improve at all.

                            Anyway, I'm really looking forward to some games. I want to start judging him based on the new landscape instead of trying to interpolate based on the past, which is obsolete given the new factors and information.

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                            • sick!!!!!

                              thanks for posting man.

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                              • tbihis wrote: View Post
                                sick!!!!!

                                thanks for posting man.
                                No worries.

                                I used to own Payton's white home Sonics jersey. But sold it to a buddy for $20 cuz I need beer money

                                I don't miss my broke student days...

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