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  • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Aren't they paying tax this year for the first time?
    I believe they have until their last regular season game to unload enough salary off their books to get under the tax. I believe that's about $3.8M that they would have to free up (hence a Boozer for Bargnani trade makes sense since they would save $5M this year).

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    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      It is about Boozer, because they still believe that such a change would not really alter their performance. If they believed Boozer was worth his contract, they could find another way to shave the extra cash he makes compared to Bargs. They don't see him as important to their core compared to Rose, Noah, Deng, Gibson, and even as important to their success as role players like Hamilton, Hinrich, Belinelli, Butler, otherwise they would find a way to keep him and make other changes.
      *AFter all, a cheapskate team still wants to stay profitable, and winning does that, so if Boozer was a real difference maker to them, they would keep him
      People said the exact same about Rudy Gay. Bulls fans are probably saying the same thing about Andrea. Sometimes players just need a change in scenery. I wouldn't be surprised of AB went to CHI and all of a sudden figured it out. He just can't succeed in Toronto.
      @Chr1st1anL

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      • I just don't like Boozer. I can't stand Bargnani, but I'd rather just amnesty him then to have to pay Boozer for 3 more years.

        I would still prefer Gasol (although with his injury I doubt that's going to happen). If Chicago is interested in a Boozer/Bargnani swap I'd rather do something like this:
        http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=bek6aka

        Chicago - Bargnani
        Toronto - Okafor (and possibly a first rounder from Washington)
        Washington - Boozer

        Okafor has an expiring contract next year. Can play both PF and C. Is a shell of what he used to be but I would take him for his expiring contract for next season, and if a pick is thrown in as well then even better.

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        • planetmars wrote: View Post
          I just don't like Boozer. I can't stand Bargnani, but I'd rather just amnesty him then to have to pay Boozer for 3 more years.

          I would still prefer Gasol (although with his injury I doubt that's going to happen). If Chicago is interested in a Boozer/Bargnani swap I'd rather do something like this:
          http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=bek6aka

          Chicago - Bargnani
          Toronto - Okafor (and possibly a first rounder from Washington)
          Washington - Boozer

          Okafor has an expiring contract next year. Can play both PF and C. Is a shell of what he used to be but I would take him for his expiring contract for next season, and if a pick is thrown in as well then even better.
          I would also prefer this to getting Boozer. I don't think Boozer makes our current team a better playoff team. Maybe a slightly better regular season team....who cares about that.

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          • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            Sad but true. Check this link to see the Raps salary situation, knowing the cap will likely be around $60M next season (was roughly $58M this season).

            Link: http://www.hoopsworld.com/toronto-raptors-team-salary
            Don't worry about the cap if Bell and Rogers are not. The key is putting a winning team on the court.

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            • Nilanka wrote: View Post
              I was being sarcastic.
              Ok

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              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                My point about his contract wasn't whether he's worth it....but worth it to them. You say they never paid the tax....but they still have other pieces they could move around and probably manage to save the same amount of money as flipping Boozer for Bargs. After all, Memphis managed to do the same before inexplicably deciding to trade Gay (really, why did they decide to do us a favor?). If Boozer was such a key piece of a winning team, they would find a way to keep him. After all, with the commitment they made, that's clearly what they foresaw.

                Anyway, my point is that if they want to make money and get under the tax, then they should want to stay as competitive as possible around Rose in order to keep making money. Deep playoff runs are where the money's at. One would think Boozer is an important piece to this puzzle given what they committed to him. THey clearly don't believe that anymore. So if he's not part of the puzzle for a team with Rose, Noah, Gibson, Deng, and a bunch of solid role players, why would he be for us, when we're further away from being relevant?

                You're obviously entitled to your opinions on the other guys...but I do think Clark is underrated. He has had very little opportunity, and is extremely athletic with a decent all around feel for the game. Not really elite at anything, but solid. If nothing else comes up in trades, he'd be one of my top targets.
                We need to get straight Bulls play in 3rd largest US market; they are the 2nd most profitable NBA franchise over the last 5 years with $50M in profit averaged annually; they are the 3rd most valuable NBA franchise at an estimated $800M - they are already making money. They are not inquiring about making a move of Boozer to secure a profit - they are already a profitable team. Last season, for example, with a shortened season (9 less home games and just 3 playoff games) they made $34M in profit according to Forbes. Deep playoff runs certainly help with the bottom line and are more profitable than regular season games - no doubt, no question - but again the Bulls are already one of the biggest cash cows in the league - even without a deep playoff run last season.

                Boozer is still a valuable piece in Chicago - just as Gay was a valuable piece in Memphis. It comes down to the cost versus the reward. I still think the cost of Boozer versus the reward is much greater than the cost of Bargnani versus the reward.

                And, assuming for just one moment that your assumption about Boozer is correct and Bulls don't believe he is an important piece of the puzzle, he was still averaging 29.5mpg in the regular season for the #1 seed Bulls and 33.3 minutes per game in the playoffs. This season he is averaging 30.5mpg for the 5th seeded Bulls (who are missing their franchise player no less). You are certainly not insinuating that a player who plays the 3rd most minutes and is the 2nd leading scorer and rebounder is not valuable to the franchise?

                To answer this question:
                So if he's not part of the puzzle for a team with Rose, Noah, Gibson, Deng, and a bunch of solid role players, why would he be for us, when we're further away from being relevant?
                Two part answer:
                1) This is not a basketball decision on the part of Chicago. It is a business/financial decision - which is also why I make Chicago sweat it out and include a 1st rd pick.
                2) It is funny how the same logic was used with Rudy Gay prior to and when the trade was consumated and look how that has played out. This is a league where talent wins. Boozer is yet another talent upgrade and is an easy basketball decision.

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Boozer is yet another talent upgrade and is an easy basketball decision.

                  Everything Matt says is accurate. Boozer is better, we should take him if we can. THREAD CLOSED
                  For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Sorry dude but Boozer is MUCH better than Bargnani.
                    Reading comprehension, Matt. Of course Boozer is the better player. But he's not the better contract, for what this team needs today and into the next 2-3 years.

                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    As for chemistry, you don't recall the much publicized players only meeting shouting in the locker room calling Bargnani out? And what has changed since that time?
                    He's a bench player. He's the at-best 6th option on offense. He's not being expected to carry this team. He's not expected to be here past this summer. And on top of that, he's never been spoken of as having any kind of attitude problems that would make him a lockerroom problem. I hardly see anything there to indicate a need to get him out of town ASAP at any cost.

                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Financially it adds $5M per year. Considering the great history of non-signings, overpayment required to actually sign someone, and Colangelo's drunken sailor approach to free agency, the consequences of not having free agency is hardly one that will cause me to lose sleep.
                    Unlike you, I don't think "getting rid of Bargnani" is reason enough to jump at an extremely-flawed asset, despite whatever perceived anti-Toronto sentiment is out there. I think you've even said yourself that winning is the only thing that solves that problem, and they seem to have a chance to do some of that with this roster (w/ or w/o Bargs).

                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Luckily JV is a true C and not a PF. Boozer impacts Amir and Acy. Personally, despite Amir's great production starting of late, I still see him as a third big and that is not meant as an insult to him.
                    Boozer will eat front-court minutes. Those are coming from all the current bigs, not just Amir. And you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see anything 'different' about Amir's game over the past couple of years, which indicates to me that, given minutes and a defined role, he can maintain his current production as a starter. He's also an ideal fit for the lineup, considering the ball-in-hand needs of Gay, Demar, and Lowry. You can't ignore the impact of Boozer's presence on those guys, either.

                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    I do agree with the implied desperation but even someone such as myself who is dying for him to be sent packing has hesitated on any Boozer deal that does not include a 1st rd draft pick.
                    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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                    • Concerning overpaying, Toronto is dammed to overpay as the taxes are 20% higher in CA? Correct me if I'm wrong.
                      Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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                      • I think we need to take away shots from DD and Rudy. Rudy is averaging 23 shots a game. That needs to go down to at least 20 shots. Would make him more effiecent and are offense. Would nice to get some easy buckets at times.
                        @Chr1st1anL

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                        • psrs1 wrote: View Post
                          Don't worry about the cap if Bell and Rogers are not. The key is putting a winning team on the court.
                          They have to worry about the cap. They can't sign an UFA to a big contract if they are over, and it puts restrictions on salaries going in and out on trades.

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                          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Two part answer:
                            1) This is not a basketball decision on the part of Chicago. It is a business/financial decision - which is also why I make Chicago sweat it out and include a 1st rd pick.
                            2) It is funny how the same logic was used with Rudy Gay prior to and when the trade was consumated and look how that has played out. This is a league where talent wins. Boozer is yet another talent upgrade and is an easy basketball decision.
                            I think the comparison is bad form Matt. You're using Gay as a comparison because it works in your favour, not because it's apt....Just because neither team wants to pay the tax, doesn't make it a great comparison. They aren't from similar markets, don't play similar positions, are at different points in their careers and where Chicago tries to maximize what Boozer brings, they forced Rudy to limit himself in Memphis....
                            Boozer: 31 year old PF entering decline with injury history. Has disappeared in the playoffs for a team that acquired him specifically to help them take the next step in the post season. They play a bruising, defensive style of basketball that a halfcourt player like Boozer should thrive in.
                            Gay: 26 year old SF entering his prime with no injury history. Memphis never even gave their team at full health a chance to compete in the playoffs, thus obviously not caring about taking the next step. They play a bruising, defensive style of halfcourt basketball that is the worst way to maximize Rudy Gay's talents....

                            Part of the argument in the Gay deal was always about fit. And it was an argument you made frequently, that his style would better fit Toronto where he'd get the ball more, they could play a bit faster and there less space being clogged down low by the bigs.
                            Can you make a similar argument for Boozer? Does he fit the way we're playing, keeping in mind he may be about as bad defensively as Andrea, not quicker at getting up the floor, and has less range? Would acquiring him lead to having to accommodate him, much like the team was doing with Andrea earlier in the year (until they told BC to keep out of the coaches' decisions???)?

                            I just don't like this deal. Saying "this is a league where talent wins" and being willing to spend anything to get it is how you get the Isiah Thomas Knicks teams from a few years ago....it's more than just aggregating talent, it's about knowing how to mix talents...

                            *Again, if it's such an easy decision, why hasn't it been made yet? IF it's a straight-up swap and an obvious talent upgrade (and BC has the green light to spend tax), why hasn't he pulled the trigger? I would guess that aside from money, it's not even close to his top option in terms of fit for this team.
                            Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:28 PM.

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                            • Beaverboi wrote: View Post
                              They have to worry about the cap. They can't sign an UFA to a big contract if they are over, and it puts restrictions on salaries going in and out on trades.
                              It is unlikely that any high value UFA will land in T.O. Hence it may be better to trade for overpaid talent knowing you have their contract for the next 2+ years.

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                              • I understand the point I just think it is more likely to improve through trade..

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