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  • Nilanka wrote: View Post
    That's just it though....the fans who booed Bargnani DID have a reason. That is, the less-than-stellar play he's graced us with over the past 7 years.

    I'm just curious as to why some people think it's justified to boo Bargnani if he lacks effort one night, but not if he lacks effort for his entire career.
    Again, I point to the booing just for showing up to work. That night Bargs played well and helped his team. I'm not saying one night makes up for 7 years. But you're going to one game where he actually helped the team...how is it ok to boo someone for that?

    Comment


    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      Again, I point to the booing just for showing up to work. That night Bargs played well and helped his team. I'm not saying one night makes up for 7 years. But you're going to one game where he actually helped the team...how is it ok to boo someone for that?
      But wouldn't you agree that the timeframe is completely subjective? You evaluate performances from one game to the next. Maybe the fans booing that night were evaluating his entire career to date. Who's to say one's right and one's wrong?

      Comment


      • While reading the entire first page... I was amused to an absurd degree. I can't believe so many people would shoot down Bargnani for Ilyasova straight up so emphatically. A lot of reversals after the first page, but wow. Like Matt52 said, there is virtually literally nothing about Ilyasova that isn't better than Bargnani. Younger, better from range, gets paid less in the four years of his contract (minus team option year) than Bargnani gets paid in three, better shot selection, much better rebounder, etc. Ridiculous.

        Comment


        • Nilanka wrote: View Post
          But wouldn't you agree that the timeframe is completely subjective? You evaluate performances from one game to the next. Maybe the fans booing that night were evaluating his entire career to date. Who's to say one's right and one's wrong?
          I think it's a mixture of a lack of logic, and just being way too negative....Booing Bargnani early in the game can't possibly do any good. And really does it erase the last 7 years? Such an attitude would make you think that the fans would rather him not play at all, which is probably a fair guess....but then, like I said earlier, would they rather he didn't and it cost us the game?

          That's why it makes no sense to me to boo someone at the game for his past 7 years of performance. It would seem to imply that such fans desired a sort of negative experience at the game...that they would be happier booing Bargs to a loss as if it's some sort of vindication.....That they would rather see the team win wihtout him than with him, when really why should it matter if the team is winning?

          All that said, you are right and it's subjective, but I just really don't understand the side of the argument for why you would do such a thing....if you hate that player and don't want to cheer for the team with him on it..don't go to the game

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          • Guys, there's an entire thread dedicated to the question of "to boo, or not to boo" with regards to Bargnani. Please keep this thread on topic - Ilyasova rumor.

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            • Nilanka wrote: View Post
              I think we're all being a tad sensitive. Fans have booed teams, players, coaches (in any sport) since the beginning of time. Nothing new here. Whether Bargnani, as a person, genuinely deserved it or not is completely irrelevant. The ACC will reign down boos at some point in the future too....it's an inevitability.

              IMO, I'm just glad the fan base is passionate enough to react one way or the other. I'd be much more disappointed if the crowd showed complete disinterest...like they do in Philips Arena.
              You're right. I guess it does come off as a bit sensitive. To tell you the truth, although I don't approve of all the booing, Im really not that phased by it all. What frustrates me is how people feel that just because they purchased a ticket they think that gives them the green light to do whatever the hell they want without care of how it effects everyone else. Ill stand up to that ugliness everytime.

              You're also right about the passion. Theres always gonna be knuckleheads out there and there'll be more booing for sure but at least we got passion.

              To tell you the truth, Ive always been proud of our fan base. Even through all the crappy seasons we've always had top level attendance, some of the loudest fans and at least all the booing shows great passion aswell.

              - Overall, TORONTO HAS THE BEST FANS -

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              • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                **Slow clap**

                (Note that I did remove the part about slapping people. No clap for that part. I don't condone violence.)
                lol "slapping fools" is probably a bit too far

                Comment


                • Well, I'm going to recap some reasons why I think getting Bargs could end up working for Milwaukee....

                  -He definitely mixes it up more as a scorer, and can carry a higher usg% because of that. Ilyasova, much like Amir and other role players, is partly so efficient from knowing when to limit himself. You can't put the ball in his hands and expect a lot to happen. Bargs is less efficient, but certainly more capable of being a 2nd or 3rd option(or probably 4th). They need someone who can hit shots in the post/paint and create those for himself. Bargs certainly has at least a few moves where he finishes in that low post area or heart of the paint. He's a worse 3pt shooter than Ilyasova, but if he's also going to score for them in other ways, I think they might take that. I also feel like part of Bargs' dropoff in that 3% is a mix of injuries, and utilization by Casey...I feel like he shoots a lot more 3s in bad situations (like in isolation) instead of open 3s in rhythm where he thrives, but I could be wrong, I don't have access to any advanced stats like that (would synergy have that???)

                  -Ilyasova can't play C defensively. Yes Bargs is soft on the boards, but we all see his size, and that as a one on one defender, he's actually probably our best all-around big guarding the ball. Once that ball is into the post(low or high), Bargs is often the best at either holding his ground, or backing off and making himself big so it's hard to drive by him. Is Amir a better overall team defender? Yes, of course. Hands down. It's not even close. And he's better usually at fighting off the ball. But for Milwaukee, they're grooming Sanders and Henson as help defenders. What they desperately lack, and I noticed this a bit on their forums, is a F/C who can score and defend both big positions. I saw a lot of Cousins, and names like Gasol, Jefferson...even before you might see names Raps fans are big on, like Smith and Millsap. Also, yes Ilyasova is a better rebounder, but stats-wise and with their roster, they might be ok losing 1-2 rebounds for Bargs' points if they think they'll make it up as Sanders and Henson develop, which is entirely possible.

                  -Finances....the initial reason I suggested Udoh, is that if they have Sanders, Henson and whoever they trade for, Udoh gets no real burn anyway. You figure they are going to want a vet, or just keep Gooden...Mbah a Moute plays as a 3/4 as well, so they're not small. THey could easily have 4-5 bigs discounting Udoh. Milwaukee is a smaller market. They struggle to attract big names/contracts...They may have to settle for someone like Bargs, and we can sweeten the deal by taking back Udoh, who doesn't figure to be in their long term plans, and eats up capspace + a roster spot next year. We can offer Udoh a legit chance at least as the 4th big if he can outplay Gray or Acy, and we can also absorb his money fairly easily and renounce his rights after next year if we want instead of giving him a qualifying offer. So the deal would not only save Milwaukee the extra year (and not much, less than a million) on Ilyasova, plus another 4.5 million on Udoh next year. That would save them some roster space, about 5-6 million dollars, and shorten their commitments.

                  -Also, ignoring any hypotheses since apparently that bugged someone, fans definitely want Ellis gone. Apart from the forums, below's a link to an article of which players their truehoop network site, Bucksketball, seems to suggest that Dalembert(expiring), Udrih(expiring), Ilyasova, Ellis(possibly opting out), and Jennings are most likely to be traded judging by other teams wanting them, in that order, which is associated to some question in a Chad Ford chat about which Bucks are available...(Chad Ford, take that as you like) You never know when a 3 team deal might help as it clearly made a difference in the Gay trade, and it seems there's at least a possibility they have some different pieces moving.

                  http://www.bucksketball.com/2013/02/...lwaukee-bucks/
                  Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:57 PM.

                  Comment


                  • • Toronto general manager Bryan Colangelo, to the surprise of no one, is still more than willing to trade Raptors center Andrea Bargnani. But according to a person with knowledge of the situation, he continues to spark very little, if any, interest. The person spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the private nature of the talks.

                    The No. 1 pick of the 2006 draft is owed $10.7 million next season and $11.5 million in 2014-15 (so long as he doesn't use his early termination option). Bargani, who tore a ligament in his right elbow on Dec. 10 and returned on Feb. 6, has seen serious declines in his production from last season to this one.

                    Despite his playing time being almost identical (33.3 minutes per game compared to 32.2), his scoring (19.5 points per game to 15.8), shooting percentage (43.2% to 41%), and rebounding (5.5 to 4.2) are down. The talks between Toronto and Chicago involving forward Carlos Boozer are not seen

                    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...-to-z/1913745/

                    Noooooooooooooooooooo.

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                    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      -He definitely mixes it up more as a scorer, and can carry a higher usg% because of that. Ilyasova, much like Amir and other role players, is partly so efficient from knowing when to limit himself. You can't put the ball in his hands and expect a lot to happen. Bargs is less efficient, but certainly more capable of being a 2nd or 3rd option(or probably 4th). They need someone who can hit shots in the post/paint and create those for himself. Bargs certainly has at least a few moves where he finishes in that low post area or heart of the paint. He's a worse 3pt shooter than Ilyasova, but if he's also going to score for them in other ways, I think they might take that. I also feel like part of Bargs' dropoff in that 3% is a mix of injuries, and utilization by Casey...I feel like he shoots a lot more 3s in bad situations (like in isolation) instead of open 3s in rhythm where he thrives, but I could be wrong, I don't have access to any advanced stats like that (would synergy have that???)
                      Until this season, Bargnani has always been assisted on 60%+ of his makes at the rim. Also, 60+% of his shots come from 16 feet and out. Ilyasova consistently has a usg% of 20; he takes a fifth of the shots when he's on the floor. He may not be ball dominant like Bargnani, but he's no corner three specialist.

                      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      -Ilyasova can't play C defensively. Yes Bargs is soft on the boards, but we all see his size, and that as a one on one defender, he's actually probably our best all-around big guarding the ball. Once that ball is into the post(low or high), Bargs is often the best at either holding his ground, or backing off and making himself big so it's hard to drive by him. Is Amir a better overall team defender? Yes, of course. Hands down. It's not even close. And he's better usually at fighting off the ball. But for Milwaukee, they're grooming Sanders and Henson as help defenders. What they desperately lack, and I noticed this a bit on their forums, is a F/C who can score and defend both big positions. I saw a lot of Cousins, and names like Gasol, Jefferson...even before you might see names Raps fans are big on, like Smith and Millsap. Also, yes Ilyasova is a better rebounder, but stats-wise and with their roster, they might be ok losing 1-2 rebounds for Bargs' points if they think they'll make it up as Sanders and Henson develop, which is entirely possible.
                      Bargnani has only had a double digit rebounding rate THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. To put in perspective the difference between the two in terms of rebounding, Bargnani's DEFENSIVE rebounding rate has only been higher than Ilyasova's TOTAL rebounding rate in the same season... again... THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. In a down year for Ilyasova, he's still bringing in more rebounds a game than Bargnani has ever averaged in a season.

                      Also, why would Ilyasova get penalized for not being able to guard the post when he's a 4? I would also certainly not call Bargnani a better defender than any big in the league except when he doesn't have to move. Down in the post? Sure. In the high post? No thanks. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously, but the point still stands. I get that you're trying to rationalize it from Milwaukee's point of view, but yeah.

                      Comment


                      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        1. Udho a quality big with upside? Yeah, those 4 pts and 3.5 rbs on 40% shooting are really promising. He has done little more to impress in Milwaukee than he did in GS. He's also making more than 3 million a year because of his rookie scale deal, and he's not even as good as Acy, I would say, though he is bigger, which makes him an ok backup or 3rd string C with Gray behind JV.

                        2. Bargs gets some touches almost every game in the post. He is big and uses his size, especially when he has a mismatch. This is something that started way back when Triano was here. Clearly you don't actually pay attention to Raps games when you watch them. Ersan does not have the size, or moves, to really finish a lot in the post...Bargs is a much better player in the paint (where he finishes at a higher %, 46% on 44 attempts to 24% on 34 attempts, according to nba.com's advanced player stats), and Ilyasova's %s and usage are focused under the basket and at the 3pt line because he's a complimentary scorer. This is because Bargs can actually create shots from different spots on teh court.

                        In fact, if you look at the breakdown by area on such pages, Bargs is as good or better in terms of %s from everywhere except the above the break 3, and all that with a usg % of about 25%, as compared to Ersan's 19%. Considering the Bucks want a better scorer, and especially that role of a 2nd or 3rd guy to go with Jennings, Bargs clearly has more ability to fill that role.

                        3. Hypothesis about Indy. It's a hypothesis, I don't need a source. Have you suggested that the Raps should try any trade? All I did was suggest that since I think it's pretty well known that Granger has been in the rumor mill since the summer, and that with Indy's lineup playing well, it's as good a time as any for them to trade him to address more important issues, like the fact that their backcourt is basically Stephenson, Hill and Augustin...Ellis would be a huge upgrade for them from that perspective. I don't see a problem with showing that such a 3team deal is at least technically possible, which is really all I was doing with the trade machine link.

                        4. Booing Bargs....that is classless. What would you be booing him for? YOu think that's going to help your team win? You think that's going to make him want to play better, which is good whether we keep or trade him? How has he caused you suffering? Has his inability to rebound affected your health, your virility, your friendships?
                        Boo Bargs if we're losing games and he's playing like crap. He came back and was actually playing well, for Bargs. That is classless, good sir, and I hope one day 20,000 people boo you just for showing up to work.

                        oh, some random stats from nba.com....
                        http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r
                        http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r

                        ok, lets entertain this discussion:

                        1. Here are some Udoh stats for you:
                        a. 1.15 blocks per game in 18.3 min - there is only one player in the league who averages more in less minutes, his teammate Delembert
                        b. Shoots career best 80% FT this season

                        With a 7'4.5'' wing span he's another Ibaka in making. Could be the first big off the bench on any team until he develops into a solid defensive PF.

                        2. Bargs does not play inside. He is afraid of any contact and prefers to patrol the 3pt line. Ersan actually bangs in the post, hence his higher rebound %. I am just going to ignore your comment about "not paying attention"

                        3. There are tons of potential trades rumors/sites and what makes sense to which team articles; I suggested to keep this relevant to the thread topic.

                        4. Booing Bargs before he'd enter his first game back - has nothing to do with the team. Of course I want it to win and of course I want to get max value of the inevitable trade. He has caused me hours of pain watching his lack of effort and pathetic fake shot then one dribble pull up.

                        Comment


                        • I hope any thoughts of bargnani being a new man off the bench are put to rest

                          #tradeBargnani

                          he is who he is

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                          • All I have to say is that Ilyasova is a beast baller. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to watch reruns of Rautins on Roundball. Hammond will not do this deal until we take on someone like Dalembert which is fine by me personally. We're giving up Bargnani here. Andrea. Seriously.
                            “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Noooooooooooooooooooo.
                              This is reality and tonight's performance against Denver was proof of that. It's one thing to have porous defence, after all Amir and Jonas were just as culpable. But a rebound in 18 minutes is simply the ol' 50 Shades of Bargnani. We're stuck with this clown. Oh, and here we are talking about Colangelo's option. Wow!
                              “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

                              Comment


                              • People boo the players or the team because they don't get to boo the Managment for the product on the floor. By doing so it sends the message that they are unhappy with the product. It is misguided and uproductive but people are paying money to be entertained and if they aren't entertained well they got to let off some steam.

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