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  • Tim, you're being far too harsh on him.












    Paul Blart Mall Cop wasn't THAT bad.

    Oh wait, no I'm thinking of that other mall security guard movie with Seth Rogan

    Carry on

    Comment


    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      On the surface, this seems like a good argument. Unfortunately, it's really not. Has Bargnani been allowed to play his "natural" position? No. Should it matter? Not at all. David Lee, who is far less suited to play center than Bargnani made the All-Star team with New York doing it. Al Horford, who's also far less suited to play center also made the All-Star team playing center. Dirk Nowitzki has also made the All-Star team while being Dallas' starting center.

      Bargnani has averaged 30 mpg over the course of his career, and this despite being one of the worst rebounding and defending big men in the entire league. How ANYONE can say he hasn't been given a far better chance than just about anyone in the history of the league? 99% of NBA players would KILL for the chances that Bargnani has received. And the majority of NBA players who have succeeded, did so with far fewer advantages than Bargnani has had.

      And this has absolutely nothing to do with him being a #1 pick. The only people that are even bringing this up are the people that are making excuses for him. No one cares. In fact, him being a #1 pick has probably been his BIGGEST advantage, because it's given him more opportunities than a player drafted lower would have been given.

      I'm just so sick of these excuses people come up with to explain why Bargnani has basically become the player he should have been expected when he was drafted. I didn't like the selection from day one because of two fatal flaws in his game. Lack of desire to defend and rebound. What's stunning to me is that's it's 5 years later and people still seem puzzled that he isn't even a decent rebounder or defender.

      It's like a Kevin James movie. The reviews are horrible, all the reviews say it sucks, the trailer looks horrible and he's never made a decent movie. Why on earth would anyone go to the movie and think that it would be anything BUT awful?

      Bargnani has never shown an ability to rebound consistently. Ever. He's never shown an ability to be even a consistently average defender. Ever. Yet people want to hold out hope that he just needs one more year and he'll get it. He's had FIVE F**KING YEARS!!!!!!!! You're not being optimistic. You're being insane.

      Tim I'm new to the site and this is the second time I've had a run in with you. If you pull your nose out of the air and focus your attention on the posting you'll perhaps make sound attacks towards me rather then whats coming across as immature attempts at bullying lol.

      1) Our first debate on shot blocking was taken out of context as you wanted it swept under the rug and said it was essentially meaningless. I simply disagreed and thought IMO that it was usually a factor in the majority of successful defenses.

      2) It's clear your clearly not a Andrea fan/supporter based on your posts on every subject related to him and most that aren't. All I suggested is that not only is he to blame but also the franchise for a number of reasons. I just stated that IMO he wasn't spoon fed such a perfect situation as most of the Anti-Dre Mob believe he was.

      If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every story. Do I think they should keep him around? Yes I do unless a deal is on the table that makes them a better team. But that same philosophy would go for every player on the roster as we don't have a good enough one to label untouchable at this point.

      Comment


      • Of the many reasons to watch the Raps this upcoming season (if there is ever one) will be the drama between Casey and Andrea. I will continue to marvel at the the fans that thinks there's still hope. We shouldn't really fight about this anymore because he ain't going anywhere. To answer WhatWhat in his question below:

        An open question for anyone: Has any team gone so far out of its way for a player? (It'll be 6 seasons, assuming we keep Bargnani. SIX SEASONS!!) Has it worked?

        No. In my years of watching ball, I don't recall one player being given this much royal treatment. Three coaches in five years is quite a dubious achievement. Let's go ahead and continue this debate. It keeps RR interesting. If anything, the Andrea debate is starting to separate conscious fans from the ones in denial. I mean, now there's talk of Biyombo picked at the fifth spot? Are we considering Kemba to complement Demar? Why are we drafting for one player then?
        “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

        Comment


        • RAPresenting wrote: View Post
          If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every stor.
          Everyone has heard the "other side of the story" (rough timeline 2006-11)

          -he's a rookie
          -Smitch doesn't give him enough freedom
          -he doesn't speak english well
          -he shouldn't play C he should be a SF
          -he's not a small forward he's a PF
          -not his fault he was drafted #1
          -he's better at C and it takes longer to develop
          -he guesses "he's just lazy"
          -he's playing with Bosh
          -he needs more shots
          -he needs a defensive C
          -he needs a defensive SF
          -he needs a defensive SG
          -he needs a defensive PG
          -he needs a defensive minded coach
          -people are to hard on him and it hurts his feelings
          -he's the focus of the team
          -theres no one on the team to help him
          -he does the "hard stuff"
          -he has been given too much freedom

          did I miss anything?

          The "other side of the story" is excuse after excuse year after year.

          Simply put its time to move on.

          Comment


          • was just watching the interview thing on raptor tv or whatever its called now and BC and casey were both talking about how they were going to figure out a D that worked to bargs' favour. sigh. he's not going anywhere.
            @sweatpantsjer

            Comment


            • RAPresenting wrote: View Post
              Tim I'm new to the site and this is the second time I've had a run in with you. If you pull your nose out of the air and focus your attention on the posting you'll perhaps make sound attacks towards me rather then whats coming across as immature attempts at bullying lol.

              1) Our first debate on shot blocking was taken out of context as you wanted it swept under the rug and said it was essentially meaningless. I simply disagreed and thought IMO that it was usually a factor in the majority of successful defenses.

              2) It's clear your clearly not a Andrea fan/supporter based on your posts on every subject related to him and most that aren't. All I suggested is that not only is he to blame but also the franchise for a number of reasons. I just stated that IMO he wasn't spoon fed such a perfect situation as most of the Anti-Dre Mob believe he was.

              If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every story. Do I think they should keep him around? Yes I do unless a deal is on the table that makes them a better team. But that same philosophy would go for every player on the roster as we don't have a good enough one to label untouchable at this point.
              Well, first of all, I love how people will complain that someone is being rude...by being rude to them. It's like saying that you hate racists....and black people.

              Yes, I will admit that I tend to get a little passionate about certain topics, but as you haven't been around here, you might not understand just how many Bargnani excuses we have had to hear. There's a reason this thread has 3 and a half thousand comments. It's not because the guy doesn't stir debate.

              And while you did say there were two sides to the story, you have to realize that we've all heard the other side ad nauseum.

              I don't recall having a "run in" with you previously. I recall debating something with you, but that's a very big part of this site.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
              Follow me on Twitter.

              Comment


              • RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                Tim I'm new to the site and this is the second time I've had a run in with you. If you pull your nose out of the air and focus your attention on the posting you'll perhaps make sound attacks towards me rather then whats coming across as immature attempts at bullying lol.

                1) Our first debate on shot blocking was taken out of context as you wanted it swept under the rug and said it was essentially meaningless. I simply disagreed and thought IMO that it was usually a factor in the majority of successful defenses.

                2) It's clear your clearly not a Andrea fan/supporter based on your posts on every subject related to him and most that aren't. All I suggested is that not only is he to blame but also the franchise for a number of reasons. I just stated that IMO he wasn't spoon fed such a perfect situation as most of the Anti-Dre Mob believe he was.

                If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every story. Do I think they should keep him around? Yes I do unless a deal is on the table that makes them a better team. But that same philosophy would go for every player on the roster as we don't have a good enough one to label untouchable at this point.
                oh please that first paragraph made me want to throw up! And if you're going to be this butt hurt, after repeating the same flawed arguments (wrong position, bad coach, bosh) pls leave, no one will miss you.

                Comment


                • ceez wrote: View Post
                  was just watching the interview thing on raptor tv or whatever its called now and BC and casey were both talking about how they were going to figure out a D that worked to bargs' favour. sigh. he's not going anywhere.
                  Have some faith my friend. All the comments when the season ended(by BC and Andrea himself) did nothing to help the Raptors out in a trade situation. I think management is just trying to do the right thing, hopefully resurrect some trade value, and ship him out in a beneficial deal.

                  I really don't wanna hear any "oh, just give him til Christmas to learn the new defense" or "he's a scorer, if we didn't have him we wouldn't win any games" and yadda friggin yadda. I don't know if my basement walls can take any more holes in them!!

                  Comment


                  • from everything i heard i'll be shocked if he's dealt. the dirk comparisons were a little nauseating.
                    @sweatpantsjer

                    Comment


                    • ceez wrote: View Post
                      from everything i heard i'll be shocked if he's dealt. the dirk comparisons were a little nauseating.
                      I can't believe people still mention the two in the same breath.

                      Comment


                      • the usual suspects are at it again...

                        when you evalute a players effectiveness on an individual basis you can clearly pinpoint scoring and rebounding as two direct stats which are representitive of a players individual value. Leaving the team concept out of the equation for argument sake, from our 2010 roster Andrea ranked first in scoring and 4th in rebounding. Last year was his fist season being the teams featured offensive player and he produced better offensive numbers than all but 14 players in the WHOLE league. So for those critics to keep putting him down must cleary beleive offense is not valued in this league,, and in that case i consider those critics watch another sport soccer perhaps?

                        Comment


                        • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          the usual suspects are at it again...

                          when you evalute a players effectiveness on an individual basis you can clearly pinpoint scoring and rebounding as two direct stats which are representitive of a players individual value. Leaving the team concept out of the equation for argument sake, Andrea ranked first in scoring and 4th in rebounding last year. Last year was his fist full season being the teams featured offensive player and he produced better offensive numbers than all but 14 players in the WHOLE league. So for those critics to keep putting him down must cleary beleive offense is not valued in this league,, and in that case i consider those critics watch another sport soccer perhaps?
                          Why do you keep talking about his offense? No one is complaining about his offense.

                          You want stats to show a player's value to a team?

                          Own Opp Net On Off Net
                          17.1 21.3 -4.2 -6.5 -5.9 -0.5

                          http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

                          Points and rebounds tell you very little about a player's worth.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

                          Comment


                          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            Why do you keep talking about his offense? No one is complaining about his offense.

                            You want stats to show a player's value to a team?

                            Own Opp Net On Off Net
                            17.1 21.3 -4.2 -6.5 -5.9 -0.5

                            http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

                            Points and rebounds tell you very little about a player's worth.

                            I think your missing the point... there are 15 players on a roster.. some score some rebound some pass some run faster some jump higher.. the point is you assemble a team where players compliment each other.. for example bargnani can play inside and out which helps spread the floor for his teamates... and a defensive center would help bargnani on defense by ancoring the paint blocking shots etcc... you sign or get players who help solve a problem, you dont trade your best scorer because he's not your best defender as well

                            Comment


                            • Barney die.
                              Get thee hence.
                              Go mess with someone elses team.

                              We do not want you.
                              We do not need you.
                              We know you are simply baggage.
                              We will not miss you.

                              Get. The. Hell. Out.
                              “I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, he’s listed as Chu Chu. I think he’s worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name.” -Tim W.

                              Comment


                              • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                                I think your missing the point... there are 15 players on a roster.. some score some rebound some pass some run faster some jump higher.. the point is you assemble a team where players compliment each other.. for example bargnani can play inside and out which helps spread the floor for his teamates... and a defensive center would help bargnani on defense by ancoring the paint blocking shots etcc... you sign or get players who help solve a problem, you dont trade your best scorer because he's not your best defender as well
                                Your last line is exactly what bothers me about people who attempt to defend Bargnani. I mean, really. Is this your defense? That people want him to become the team's best defender? No, obviously not, so let's not put it in the argument because it lowers the rest of your argument.

                                And I think you mistake players filling roles with players being liabilities. Reggie Evans, for example, is one of the best rebounders in the entire league. He's also not very good at anything else, and in fact horrible on the offensive end (well, except for offensive rebounding). He shot barely 40% from the field, despite hardly ever shooting outside of 2 feet.

                                Julian Wright is one of the best defensive players on the Raptors, but because he can't be trusted to hit a jumpshot, it makes his defense far less valuable.

                                Sometimes being really good at something, while being extremely bad at other things nullifies what you do well. And that's unfortunately the case with Bargnani. Were he an All-World scorer, then I can see jumping through hoops to try and surround him with players that will attempt to hide his liabilities. But the fact is he's really not that great a scorer. He's never been very efficient and, while he does create mismatches, he goes through far too many stretched when he does absolutely nothing.

                                And have you ever stopped and thought that maybe the only reason Bargnani is the team's leading scorer is because they really don't have much talent? I mean, who cares who your best player is if your team only wins 22 games.

                                Oh, and I recommend you read my recent post about Bargnani...
                                http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...s-of-bargnani/
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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